It's very hard to do this in Pathfinder, for the same reason it's very hard for an assassin to slit someone's throat in Pathfinder. The system is designed to not allow you to one-hit people easily.
If you are the GM and you want to give your players the option of killing the guard before he gets off a warning, make him level 1 so they can one-shot him. If you are a PC and you're trying to do this, the way to do it is really with the Silence spell.
The silly thing about D&D is that the answer depends on what sort of sentry this is. Is it a level 1 human warrior, or is it a level 15 paladin, or? It really depends.
This makes life difficult for rogues and sneaky assassin types who depend on taking guys out quickly, as you can't make any guarantees.
Generally speaking, though, your average nobody guard guy is probably a very low-level warrior (the NPC class). We're talking just a few levels at most, with probably an average of about 5 HP or more per hit die (maybe more if your GM uses max HP at 1st level for NPCs; I don't.). A sentry who guards someone really important, like a king or some important temple or something, is probably a lot tougher and better equipped. And if you're sneaking around in an area important to the plot, you run the risk of running into a significant NPC who may be a level-appropriate challenge all on their own.
So, I'd say 15 to 20 damage is a good estimate for reliably taking out your average guard in one hit, but be careful with lethal damage as this could kill your average commoner outright. Anything in the 30+ range and you're likely to kill even an average guard outright, assuming your character cares.
EDIT: Oh, and concerning speaking as a free action: The way I run things, if someone takes a guy out by surprise in one hit, there may be a grunt or a groan or a gasp, but that's about it. If it goes beyond the surprise round, but the victim is still flat-footed, he may get out something unintelligible: a shout, a quick "help!" but nothing too coherent. I find that when I'm surprised like that, my brain can't be arsed to come up with anything smart to say except "hey!" or something equally dumb. But once their turn comes up, I'll let them put together a proper sentence, call for more guards, etc. This is just a guideline; specific situations may change what's possible or realistic.
This starts to delve into the whole "cinematic" gameplay thing. Meaning "do you want your game to be more like a movie, or more like real life?"
Because in a movie it's usually a trivial thing to take out a nameless redshirt guard with a single punch or a throat slitting.
In real life it's not nearly that simple.
If you want your game to be more cinematic, with guards being dispatchd silently and efficiently, then make them minions who have 1 hp and just let them get waxed.
If you want your game to be more realistic, then put a reasonably powerful guard and let the players figure out how to defeat them. They can use "silence" or overwhelming force, or distraction or whatever. Just like you have to do in real life.
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This came up once in a game I ran, and I decided to model it using the Dirty Trick combat maneuver:
Dirty Trick
You can attempt to hinder a foe in melee as a standard action. This maneuver covers any sort of situational attack that imposes a penalty on a foe for a short period of time. Examples include kicking sand into an opponent's face to blind him for 1 round, pulling down an enemy's pants to halve his speed, or hitting a foe in a sensitive spot to make him sickened for a round. The GM is the arbiter of what can be accomplished with this maneuver, but it cannot be used to impose a permanent penalty, and the results can be undone if the target spends a move action. If you do not have the Improved Dirty Trick feat or a similar ability, attempting a dirty trick provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.If your attack is successful, the target takes a penalty. The penalty is limited to one of the following conditions: blinded, dazzled, deafened, entangled, shaken, or sickened. This condition lasts for 1 round. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD, the penalty lasts 1 additional round. This penalty can usually be removed if the target spends a move action. If you possess the Greater Dirty Trick feat, the penalty lasts for 1d4 rounds, plus 1 round for every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD. In addition, removing the condition requires the target to spend a standard action.
Just add "silenced" to the condition list, and go with it as written. If the maneuver is successful, assume the PC smashed the victim's windpipe, or covered their mouth, or knocked the wind out of them or something appropriate. Since "blinded" is already on the list, "silenced" isn't too much of a stretch, and the example even suggests effects beyond the core conditions, like "pulling down an enemy's pants to halve his speed". The hard part for the PC will be to finish the combat before the effect wears off, or to keep re-silencing the victim during the combat, with the resulting AoOs and potential to miss.
It makes for a very gritty combat.
Oh! And I wouldn't give a surprised victim an AoO during the surprise round, since, by definition, they didn't see the first one coming.
Nice approach uriel, I will remember this.
This came up once in a game I ran, and I decided to model it using the Dirty Trick combat maneuver:
Just add "silenced" to the condition list, and go with it as written. If the maneuver is successful, assume the PC smashed the victim's windpipe, or covered their mouth, or knocked the wind out of them or something appropriate. Since "blinded" is already on the list, "silenced" isn't too much of a stretch, and the example even suggests effects beyond the core conditions, like "pulling down an enemy's pants to halve his speed". The hard part for the PC will be to finish the combat before the effect wears off, or to keep re-silencing the victim during the combat, with the resulting AoOs and potential to miss.
It makes for a very gritty combat.
Oh! And I wouldn't give a surprised victim an AoO during the surprise round, since, by definition, they didn't see the first one coming.
I like this idea (although technically "pulling down an enemy's pants to halve his speed" is intended to give the Entangled condition, which is one of those listed.) Also, flat-footed characters never get to take AoOs (unless they have Combat Reflexes), so yeah the guard wouldn't get an AoO the first round unless he makes his perception check and wins initiative.
This starts to delve into the whole "cinematic" gameplay thing. Meaning "do you want your game to be more like a movie, or more like real life?"
Because in a movie it's usually a trivial thing to take out a nameless redshirt guard with a single punch or a throat slitting.
In real life it's not nearly that simple.
If you want your game to be more cinematic, with guards being dispatchd silently and efficiently, then make them minions who have 1 hp and just let them get waxed.
If you want your game to be more realistic, then put a reasonably powerful guard and let the players figure out how to defeat them. They can use "silence" or overwhelming force, or distraction or whatever. Just like you have to do in real life.
I would take the middle approach. I would make the mook guard about one half or one third the level of the players. It makes sense that the BBEG and his inner circle would be on par with the players or stronger, but if the players are considered exceptional individuals, does it really make sense that an organization has 50 guys on the payroll that are all an even match for the heros?
I would take the middle approach. I would make the mook guard about one half or one third the level of the players. It makes sense that the BBEG and his inner circle would be on par with the players or stronger, but if the players are considered exceptional individuals, does it really make sense that an organization has 50 guys on the payroll that are all an even match for the heros?This starts to delve into the whole "cinematic" gameplay thing. Meaning "do you want your game to be more like a movie, or more like real life?"
Because in a movie it's usually a trivial thing to take out a nameless redshirt guard with a single punch or a throat slitting.
In real life it's not nearly that simple.
If you want your game to be more cinematic, with guards being dispatchd silently and efficiently, then make them minions who have 1 hp and just let them get waxed.
If you want your game to be more realistic, then put a reasonably powerful guard and let the players figure out how to defeat them. They can use "silence" or overwhelming force, or distraction or whatever. Just like you have to do in real life.
That's not really a "middle" approach. 1/3 to 1/2 of the characters or BBEG's level is pretty "reasonable" for a guard's level. So you're really advocating my approach #2.
That's not really a "middle" approach. 1/3 to 1/2 of the characters or BBEG's level is pretty "reasonable" for a guard's level. So you're really advocating my approach #2.I would take the middle approach. I would make the mook guard about one half or one third the level of the players. It makes sense that the BBEG and his inner circle would be on par with the players or stronger, but if the players are considered exceptional individuals, does it really make sense that an organization has 50 guys on the payroll that are all an even match for the heros?This starts to delve into the whole "cinematic" gameplay thing. Meaning "do you want your game to be more like a movie, or more like real life?"
Because in a movie it's usually a trivial thing to take out a nameless redshirt guard with a single punch or a throat slitting.
In real life it's not nearly that simple.
If you want your game to be more cinematic, with guards being dispatchd silently and efficiently, then make them minions who have 1 hp and just let them get waxed.
If you want your game to be more realistic, then put a reasonably powerful guard and let the players figure out how to defeat them. They can use "silence" or overwhelming force, or distraction or whatever. Just like you have to do in real life.
My bad, I thought you were the person advocating 1 hp minions for sentries, sorry.
In regards to silence, would it be possible to cast the silence spell onto each arrow individually in order to force multiple saves instead of relying on a single one? For that matter, what does happen to arrows after they're fired? Do they pass through the target? Get stuck in them until removed? Bounce off in a random direction?
There is no save when an object (or point in space) is the target of a silence spell.
However, if you shoot the guard with a silenced arrow, by the rules the arrow is destroyed upon striking, thus no more silence.
Like many things, used once as a cool idea, it's worth ignoring. However shooting the arrow into the ground next to the guard should work just fine.
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My bad, I thought you were the person advocating 1 hp minions for sentries, sorry.That's not really a "middle" approach. 1/3 to 1/2 of the characters or BBEG's level is pretty "reasonable" for a guard's level. So you're really advocating my approach #2.
He was, but that was his approach #1 (cinematic).
He was, but that was his approach #1 (cinematic).My bad, I thought you were the person advocating 1 hp minions for sentries, sorry.That's not really a "middle" approach. 1/3 to 1/2 of the characters or BBEG's level is pretty "reasonable" for a guard's level. So you're really advocating my approach #2.
Well, technically I wasn't "advocating" for either, just pointing out that there are two options (and probably more, but two obvious ones) and which one someone prefers probably has a lot to do with how they visualize the encounter in their heads.
It's interesting to me that you think taking out a guard with one well-placed blow is 'cinematic,' whereas the guard getting bashed multiple times with no ill effect is 'realistic.' =p
Ah! So that's what I think! Son of a gun. And I had no idea...
Apparently so Vestrial. I'm seeing all sorts of "ill effects" with the realistic approach.
Besides, I it feels like you're diving headlong into some sort of semantic argument where you want to mince words into tiny wordlets to make some sort of point and I frankly am tired of that game.
My post says what it says. Either do the "Kirk chop" and effortlessly knock over fully grown trained soldiers without so much as an "urk" or have to actually fight your way through guards that don't fall over like mannequins for the heroes. Your choice.
Don't tell me what I think (wrongly) if you don't want me to get snarky Vestrial.
Update: It strikes me upon rereading your post that perhaps you intended your "you think" as a sort of query instead of the statement the grammar implied it was. In that case I read your comment too harshly. You may have meant "you think?" in an attempt to clarify, but it came across more to me as "hah, so you think!" in an attempt to ridicule.
I'll assume that you intended the query, and so I apologize for my snark.
All of the above ideas are good, particularly the dirty trick and low level guard ideas.
Ninjas at level 10 can get a death attack for this sort of thing, or you could use drow poison or some variation thereof (My games allow custom poisons)
All of the above ideas are good, particularly the dirty trick and low level guard ideas.
Ninjas at level 10 can get a death attack for this sort of thing, or you could use drow poison or some variation thereof (My games allow custom poisons)
That said, one thing to think about if you go with really low hp guards. A magic missle does 2 damage per missle minimum. Anything under 5 hp would be especially vulnerable.
are you raping the houses, poisoning the women and plundering the water (wait i think i got that mixed up)? then you're doing "enough" damage. anything less is unacceptable.
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In real life, you can one-shot a sentry. It's not easy. This tells you how with pictures you can color.
If you consider the E6 assumption that the most competent normals are in the 5-6 level range, you can figure most mook guards are in the 1-3 level range. Any 1st-level rogue has a pretty good chance of one-shot sneak attacking a 1st-level guard in the surprise round, especially if he wins initiative and gets that second sneak attack in. It gets a lot harder if that guard has a buddy.
Sneak attack scales with level, but it doesn't scale at the same rate as hit points. So mid-level guards can really only be one-shotted by higher level rogues, and high-level guards can't be one-shotted at all.
Or, as one poor viking guard found out Friday night, a charging Power Attack katana crit TO THE FACE! can really ruin your chances of sounding the alarm.
are you raping the houses, poisoning the women and plundering the water (wait i think i got that mixed up)? then you're doing "enough" damage. anything less is unacceptable.
Yes, you plunder the women, rape the water, and poison the horses.
It is fair to consider that average warriors (city guards, standing army members, militia, etc) shouldn't have more then three class levels.
People of distinguished rank, or membership in an elite order would have more, in any degree you choose.
Dwarven guards have more con, thus more hp, elves less so less, etc.
Therefore, I'd do this:
Example: Dwarven Experienced Guardian: (Max hp at lvl 1, 16 con)
Warrior: 3d10 + 3 x 3 (10, 6, 5 + 9 = 30)
If this experienced warrior is dealt 31 damage in a single instance, he goes down will little more then a grunt.
If he were lvl 1, it would be 14 damage, if he were 2nd, it would be 23.
use these averages for less hardy enemies to ensure they go down.
This is considering a default structure such as a lord's keep, or the city
watch.
When fighting king's men, cult fanatics of a higher order, etc, consider raising them to as high as 6th.
These men apply very little xp at much higher levels, but they are common men, while warriors at level 16 are legends. A legendary assassin being unable to execute a common man with relative ease is a mockery of the archetype.
A horde of level 16 men as a default mook army is a mockery of what it means to be legendary.
Answer 1: Stunning Fist the guard, pummel him into unconsciousness in the following round
Answer 2: Rogues do it from behind. ANy class with sneak attack and Sap Adept/Master will get you around a guard no problem if you can sneak up on him.
i'll actually rescind my earlier statement: you always need more dakka.
to explain (with the help of some folks in the 40k world):
-Obviously one cannot have too much dakka to solve their problems. Galaxy's a choppy shooty place and dakka's the best answer for that.
-Consider then what would happen if one were to simply have "enough dakka". This seems like a feasible concept.
-It's not.
-If one were to have "enough dakka" and then were to add any more they would reach a state of "too much dakka"
-Therefore, since too much dakka is an impossibility and enough dakka logically cannot exist without the addition of more creating a state of too much then enough dakka must also be impossible.
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The silly thing about D&D is that the answer depends on what sort of sentry this is. Is it a level 1 human warrior, or is it a level 15 paladin, or? It really depends.
Yeah. Good thing the real world doesn't work like that. You might be able to take out the fresh-from-basic private with a dart, but to kill the general, you'll need to hit him point blank with a nuclear weapon. And then drop a couple more just to be safe.
actually kthulu you'll find that in the real world humans all tend to die from the same type of wounds regardless of training--a bullet to the face kills just about everyone (there's obviously cases where someone will survive those, but those are a very small minority).
But Pathfinder isn't the real world, and should not try to emulate it. Pathfinder has levels because Con 12 Galadriel SHOULD be harder to kill than Random-Orc-Number-23 with Con 14.
There are three instant kill options, but they are limited and often high level.
Slayers and ninjas have the assassinate as advanced talents. They require a short bit of study though (a standard action) and there is a fort save against it.
These features are updates to the the gimmick from the assassin prestige class, a PrC that was carried over from 3.5. It requires 3 full rounds of study to instant kill. The PrC does turn on earlier (level 6 vs. level 10) and it does have some minor advantages since it gets tricks to kill without notice (silent death lets you do a stealth check to keep people from noticing that the guy even died).