In an upcoming campaign, I want to try playing a monk-type hand-to-hand fighter, and I'm curious as to how an Unarmed Strike Monk compared to the Unarmed Fighter (Including Monk archetypes; the main Monk archetypes I'm considering are Martial Artist, Hungry Ghost Monk, Qinggong Monk and, in particular, Monk of the Four Winds or Master of Many Styles)
Well, the brawler archetype does have the brass knuckles and cestus. Both of those are monk weapons and not that uncommon on weapon wielding monks. They both have the advantage of letting you still use your hands for other things as well. You might be able to go without ever being unarmed.
The brawler's weapon training also has the advantage of coming 2 levels earlier than the standard fighter and other archetypes. At level 3, it is just within the range of dipping if you plan to go mainly as a monk. The total advantage is +1 to hit and +3 to damage on unarmed strikes (and mentioned weapons).
Brawlers also have other advantages if you pick it as your main class. It has a class ability that reduces enemies' to hit and concentration checks when you are next to them (up to a -4 to hit and -7 on concentration at lvl 19). They also get abilities that mess with enemies moving through your threatened squares, such as combat maneuvers as AoO's and getting AoO's when enemies are withdrawing.
They also have the advantage of being able to use all the standard armor and shields (and they even have an advantage using shields). Not entirely relevant for your hand to hand fighter (50 pounds full plate armor just screams a boxer, no?) , but it is an option at least.
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Quinggong is composed entirely of optional swaps and should automatically be placed on every monk. Even if you aren't planning to take enough monk levels to reach something you'd want to swap it allows you to change your mind.***
I would be careful with that advice since there may be table variation. That assumes you can actually use Monk archetypes with Qinggong. There has still been no official word on this. All you have is the numerous threads from various parties that fall into one of two camps. Since the rules for archetypes state "A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature", it comes down to whether making those class features optional counts as "altering" them. If it does, you can't even take the Qinggong archetype with anything other than the core monk.
I didn't even notice the Brawler...probably going to use that instead of Unarmed Fighter. The only real disadvantages I can see to the Brawler are the lack of Unarmed Strike (Easily solved by either just buying a weapon like brass knuckles or gauntlets) and the style feat (Which can be solved by dipping MoMS)
Is there any distinct advantages or disadvantages to having style feats at level one? Would dipping monk as a fighter add any disadvantages?
EDIT: The Unarmed Fighter also has DR and some different combat maneuver bonuses...hmmm...
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I didn't even notice the Brawler...probably going to use that instead of Unarmed Fighter. The only real disadvantages I can see to the Brawler are the lack of Unarmed Strike (Easily solved by either just buying a weapon like brass knuckles or gauntlets) and the style feat (Which can be solved by dipping MoMS)
Is there any distinct advantages or disadvantages to having style feats at level one? Would dipping monk as a fighter add any disadvantages?
EDIT: The Unarmed Fighter also has DR and some different combat maneuver bonuses...hmmm...
Playing a Brawler Fighter with a two level dip into Master of Many Styles is a pretty common way to go. You can have basically an entire style chain by level 3 which is typically pretty nice, you get a slightly improved base unarmed strike damage, and you gain the ability to have two styles active at once, which is all most builds need. From there you jump back to brawler and start stacking up your Weapon Focus/Specialization feats, pick up Close Combatant, etc.
Unarmed fighter with 2 levels of master of many styles has the neat trick of completing a style chain at level 3 and can run two styles simultaneously.
You have to be careful here; technically only the first feat in each style chain counts as a "style" feat. For example, Monkey Style is both a "combat" feat and a "style" feat, but Monkey Moves and Monkey Shine are only "combat" feats.
As long as you take your level of Unarmed Fighter first, you're okay for completing a whole style by 3rd level. I have a friend who screwed this up once and he just about broke a table with his forehead when he realized it.
Well, looking at the weapons, the cestus looks interesting. It is a spiked glove that has the same stats as a dagger (except the throwing bit of course), can do Bludgeoning or Piercing damage, and you can still hold objects while wearing them (you take a -2 penalty to delicate skills, but hey, fighters aren't picking locks much anyway). You could wear it all the time and never have to bother with drawing weapons. Am I wrong in thinking that these might be pretty good? Other than the fact that you would have to get your GM to shoehorn them in if you ever wanted to get any as loot, I'm not seeing any major disadvantages.
The fact that, again, brawlers get their weapon training earlier, would let you stay on top of the game if you decide to take a couple monk levels first. That would let you get your unarmed strikes from the beginning. The front loading of bonus skills for monks and fighters would mean you get even more bonus feats than a strait fighter.
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In an upcoming campaign, I want to try playing a monk-type hand-to-hand fighter, and I'm curious as to how an Unarmed Strike Monk compared to the Unarmed Fighter (Including Monk archetypes; the main Monk archetypes I'm considering are Martial Artist, Hungry Ghost Monk, Qinggong Monk and, in particular, Monk of the Four Winds or Master of Many Styles)
It's a sad fact that with a Mastor Of Many Styles dip, just about any fighting class can out-monk being a monk. They don't get all the abilities, but they don't work so well together anyway - hence the advice to take Qinggong Monk, which at least can swap them out with something that might synergise in a positive way.
That just speaks wonders on the awesome of the master of many styles. Even a little goes a long way.
I am currently playing a 13th level Unarmed fighter in a Kingmaker game, focusing on Trip, Dirty Tricks, and Grapple. I added in Stalwart/Improved Stalwart and Crane Style. At 15th level the ability to cross a battlefield and, as a standard action, grapple, trip, and blind something is a lot of fun. Add in greater trip and vicious stomp, and you are conjuring a sort of pounce attack. Grabbing mooks and enjoying DR 14/- from all attacks certainly helps. Brawler does more damage and is probably a better user of the Pin Down/Stand Still feats.
That just speaks wonders on the awesome of the master of many styles. Even a little goes a long way.The less you use the farther you'll go.
Less is more. Don't be fooled by the idea you need to be buried up to your ears in your choice, subtlety is key.
Ok, I think I'll stop now. I am starting to sound like a shady car salesman. The point remains that free access to style feats and combining styles (along with unarmed strike, if that is your preference) are amazing abilities. The problem is that it is just a bit front loaded. It is like how you will rarely see a shadow dancer beyond the 3rd level.
What books are allowed?
What races are allowed?
What is the point buy?
Yeah, guess I should have mentioned that
The core books are allowed, including all of the races from the ARG, and we roll stats, instead of point buy.
Playing a Brawler Fighter with a two level dip into Master of Many Styles is a pretty common way to go. You can have basically an entire style chain by level 3 which is typically pretty nice, you get a slightly improved base unarmed strike damage, and you gain the ability to have two styles active at once, which is all most builds need. From there you jump back to brawler and start stacking up your Weapon Focus/Specialization feats, pick up Close Combatant, etc.I didn't even notice the Brawler...probably going to use that instead of Unarmed Fighter. The only real disadvantages I can see to the Brawler are the lack of Unarmed Strike (Easily solved by either just buying a weapon like brass knuckles or gauntlets) and the style feat (Which can be solved by dipping MoMS)
Is there any distinct advantages or disadvantages to having style feats at level one? Would dipping monk as a fighter add any disadvantages?
EDIT: The Unarmed Fighter also has DR and some different combat maneuver bonuses...hmmm...
Brawlers don't get any style feats for free, so you wouldn't be able to complete a chain by level 3; you'd need Unarmed Fighter for that. Brawler gives you a unique bonus to unarmed damage that is higher than the Unarmed Fighter, though.
One other thing to keep in mind is that the Martial Artist and Master of Many Styles archetypes stack together, since they don't replace any of the same abilities. I'm doing something similar, and I'll be going Unarmed Fighter 1/Martial Artist & Master of Many Styles
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One other thing to keep in mind is that the Martial Artist and Master of Many Styles archetypes stack together, since they don't replace any of the same abilities. I'm doing something similar, and I'll be going Unarmed Fighter 1/Martial Artist & Master of Many Styles
No they don't.... Master of Many Styles and Martial Artist both replace Perfect Self. Martial Artist replaces it as part of his Extreme Endurance package, MoMS replaces it for Perfect Style.
My mistake, I'd misread the archetype entries.
One other thing to keep in mind is that the Martial Artist and Master of Many Styles archetypes stack together, since they don't replace any of the same abilities. I'm doing something similar, and I'll be going Unarmed Fighter 1/Martial Artist & Master of Many Styles
...Both archetypes replace the "perfect self" ability. Master of Many Styles loses it in order to combine 5 styles as a free action, and Martial Artist loses it as part of a large block deal for immunity to fatigue and other such conditions. Admittedly, if you take the 1 level of fighter, you would never get to a level where that SHOULD matter, but that would be a house rule to allow the archetypes to stack.
Also, it might be possible to get a whole style chain by level 3 if you start off as MoMS. But I think that is only crane style since it is possible to take that from level 1 and it only requirement that is not satisfied by being a monk is the dodge feat (which you might want anyway. Obviously that is something only humans can pick this up though. But usually, yes, you could not get most styles by that point. I am not going to check every one right now to check which ones you could take at level 1.
That just speaks wonders on the awesome of the master of many styles. Even a little goes a long way.
It's actually underwhelming as a pure class. It loses the best monk combat feature and gains a lot of possible bonus feats that aren't much cop without it. As it's left with unaugmented 3/4 BAB as a combat class it basically sucks as much as a core monk.
But as a dip class for a fighter, it's brilliant! For a two level dip you get:
Wisdom bonus to AC if unarmoured
+3 to ALL saves (you can stuff having to take Iron Will)
Improved Unarmed Strike (at 1d6 damage rather than 1d3)
2 style feats you get probably before a core monk can get them!
You don't care that you don't get flurry, because you weren't using it anyway (if you want is, you take the TWF feats for real).
Basically the MoMS rubs salt in the wound that the monk, the iconic unarmed fighter, is second-rate even compared to a real combat class fighting unarmed by giving them access to stuff any other form of monk cannot do at a low level.
Followup question: Would it be better to focus on using gauntlets/cestus, or to use the higher Unarmed Strike damage from the monk dip? (Possibly with three levels of monk to pick up Monastic Legacy) Note that I'm limiting myself to hand-to-hand style weapons, to fit my character concept.
Also, with the Dragon Ferocity style feat, is the half strength bonus damage to unarmed strikes in addition to normal strength bonuses?
bump
Gauntlet/Cestus/Brass Knuckle because they are cheaper to enchant than an amulet, and static bonuses count more and you have a better upper limit. Over them the bonus damage from using the higher dice of the monk's unarmed strike soon pales to insignificance.
And yes, it is. Effectively the monk's unarmed strikes deal damage as two-handed weapons. Dragon Ferocity is the best way to go to dish out damage from a strength monk.
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Going Ironskin Monk/Brawler Fighter, you could go Tusked trait/Feral Combat Training.
Going this path, you can later pick up a Beaststrike Club, which will allow you to apply all unarmed strike and bite feats and abilities, due to Feral Combat Training, to the club, which you can two-hand, flurry with, and apply things like Weapon Blanches to.
Gauntlet/Cestus/Brass Knuckle because they are cheaper to enchant than an amulet, and static bonuses count more and you have a better upper limit. Over them the bonus damage from using the higher dice of the monk's unarmed strike soon pales to insignificance.
And yes, it is. Effectively the monk's unarmed strikes deal damage as two-handed weapons. Dragon Ferocity is the best way to go to dish out damage from a strength monk.
didnt the aomf get a price reduction and buff recently? also, with three monk levels and a robe then full unarmed or brawler fighter, wouldnt you get the best of both (good base dice and lots of good static bonuses, as well as possible styles)?
didnt the aomf get a price reduction and buff recently? also, with three monk levels and a robe then full unarmed or brawler fighter, wouldnt you get the best of both (good base dice and lots of good static bonuses, as well as possible styles)?Gauntlet/Cestus/Brass Knuckle because they are cheaper to enchant than an amulet, and static bonuses count more and you have a better upper limit. Over them the bonus damage from using the higher dice of the monk's unarmed strike soon pales to insignificance.
And yes, it is. Effectively the monk's unarmed strikes deal damage as two-handed weapons. Dragon Ferocity is the best way to go to dish out damage from a strength monk.
Monks are almost always good dips. I have built fighter/monk mixes before, and they are great. Samples:
- Use Sohei to flurry in armor (depends on your GM, RAW it works, RAI is debated atm)- Use Sensei to get wisdom for attacks, then get a 14 in Str to get Power Attack and you're golden
- Use enforcer feats and non-lethal damage to get free intimidate all the time
- Remember you can flurry with shurikens, so pick up deadly aim to be able to flurry even when the enemy is more than 5 feet away
- Consider archetypes where you gain ki pool earlier for it's advantages
- Brawler is great because the "close" weapon group also has, among other things, spiked shield in there. You can two-hand that with power attack. Add bashing as ability and enhance the spikes, and you have a powerful 2d6 piercing weapon early on
Lots and lots of more options remain, even going for eldritch heritage, dipping cleric to get feats to flurry with weapon of your deity and so on...
Monks are great on their own and - in many cases - even better with or as dips :-)