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The Stalwart Defender"s "Defensive Stance" ability is a free action. As such, it seems to me that one could activate it at the end of the movement portion of a charge, stacking the mods for both DS and Charge for that first strike. Does this seem correct?
I did a search. I don't think this question has come up yet. My DM is wary of anything that sounds too good, so I want to make sure I'm not missing something before discussing it with him.
Can I get at least a simple yea or nay to kick this off? Seriously, there were just 65 posts devoted to what rolling a 20 means.
I don't see why not. You can perform free actions while taking another action. So activating Defensive Stance after the move portion of a charge seems to work.
It may work by "RAW" but it's certainly against the spirit of the ability. That said, it's perfectly fine to do AFTER the entire full-round action of charging and getting your attack, or you could perform a regular move action, activate the ability, and then perform a standard attack. You've siezed the critical spot on the battlefield and nothing will move you from it.
Yeah, those are in essence the two points of view I'm wrestling with. If it were against the spirit of the ability, however, which I do take seriously, then it seems like it should instead be a swift action. Bear in mind that I'm in the early stages of learning these rules though.
There are lots of other things that use your swift action (sometimes in the guise of your immediate action), some of wich a stalward defender might be using.
Charge has always been a little problematic in what's allowed during one and what's not.
I would say no.
I consider charge to be a single action that can be broken before completion, typically in response to a readied action (often brace) that changes the circumstances of the charge. in these circumstances it becomes a double move action instead.
If the DS was used during the charge action then it either breaks immediately (as the character is moving) or breaks the charge.
If you're really against it, use this:
"A defensive stance requires a level of emotional calm, and it may not be maintained by a character in a rage (such as from the rage class feature or the rage spell)."
Rule that charging an enemy is NOT a level of emotional calm.
I would say no.
I consider charge to be a single action that can be broken before completion, typically in response to a readied action (often brace) that changes the circumstances of the charge. in these circumstances it becomes a double move action instead.
If the DS was used during the charge action then it either breaks immediately (as the character is moving) or breaks the charge.
Charge is a single action. But, you can still perform a free action while charging.
Suppose a player wants to charge an orc 10 squares away. After moving 4 squares, the player wants to drop a key (free action) in that 4th square, then continue charging the 6 squares to the orc. Are you going to say dropping the key breaks the charge?
After moving 4 squares, the player wants to drop a key (free action) in that 4th square, then continue charging the 6 squares to the orc. Are you going to say dropping the key breaks the charge?
No, because dropping a key is a free action that can be done whilst moving in a straight line. Defensive Stance is a free action that can only be taken whilst stationary. A character who is charging (a single action) is not stationary.
I would say no.
I consider charge to be a single action that can be broken before completion, typically in response to a readied action (often brace) that changes the circumstances of the charge. in these circumstances it becomes a double move action instead.
It was my understanding that Free Action as a category exists precisely for the sake of *not* interrupting simultaneous actions such as you describe. Additionally, although a Charge is a Full Round Action, it is specifically described as occurring in two parts: movement and melee. In other words, it seems that the text itself points right to where such a Free Action might be played.
If you're really against it, use this:
"A defensive stance requires a level of emotional calm, and it may not be maintained by a character in a rage (such as from the rage class feature or the rage spell)."
Rule that charging an enemy is NOT a level of emotional calm.
Hrm, that's an interesting observation. I'll have to think on that. If pushed, maybe I'll suggest a Trait to mitigate.
It was my understanding that Free Action as a category exists precisely for the sake of *not* interrupting simultaneous actions such as you describe. Additionally, although a Charge is a Full Round Action, it is specifically described as occurring in two parts: movement and melee. In other words, it seems that the text itself points right to where such a Free Action might be played.
You are correct, a free action can be taken at anytime without interrupting the simultaneous action. However charging requires you to be moving and defensive stance requires you to be stationary and you cannot be both moving and stationary at the same time.
You are attempting to split the move part and the attack part into two components and inserting the free action there. Unfortunately, it would appear that the RAW has that eventuality covered already.
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.
The PRD states that if your movement is slowed you can't charge. The defensive stance requires you to be stationary. If you enter the defensive stance before you have attacked then in effect you have moved up to twice your movement in a straight line and slowed to a stop in your ending space. As you have slowed you can't have been charging in the first place and therefore don't get an attack.
Hugo, this was addressed in the first post and several times since. Part of Charge requires you to move, and part doesn't. A Charge action is part movement and part stationary. The player moves, stops, then strikes. Is there something in the text of Free Action that indicates constraints on the timing of Free Actions? As I see it, RAW doesn't address it except to generally give great leniency to Free Actions and great constraint to Charge.
It was my understanding that Free Action as a category exists precisely for the sake of *not* interrupting simultaneous actions such as you describe. Additionally, although a Charge is a Full Round Action, it is specifically described as occurring in two parts: movement and melee. In other words, it seems that the text itself points right to where such a Free Action might be played.You are correct, a free action can be taken at anytime without interrupting the simultaneous action. However charging requires you to be moving and defensive stance requires you to be stationary and you cannot be both moving and stationary at the same time.
You are attempting to split the move part and the attack part into two components and inserting the free action there. Unfortunately, it would appear that the RAW has that eventuality covered already.
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.The PRD states that if your movement is slowed you can't charge. The defensive stance requires you to be stationary. If you enter the defensive stance before you have attacked then in effect you have moved up to twice your movement in a straight line and slowed to a stop in your ending space. As you have slowed you can't have been charging in the first place and therefore don't get an attack.
Defensive Stance says, "While in a defensive stance, a stalwart defender cannot willingly move from his current position through any means."
Saying you "slowed" to a stop because you activated Defensive Stance is far from being correct. Defensive Stance doesn't slow your previous movements. It doesn't care if you've moved beforehand. It doesn't say you have to be stationary for the entire turn or action. All it cares about is that, once activated, you don't move from your current position.
"After I move with charge, I activate Defensive Stance. Look, I'm not moving from my current position!"
Activated Defensive Stance after you've moved with a charge doesn't negate the charge. Nothing blocked my movement. Nothing slowed my movement. No square that I moved in contained a creature. I made it from point A to point B.
Charging doesn't say you're using momentum or plowing into an opponent. You move up to twice your speed and attack. How you want to flavor how it looks is up to you, but that doesn't change the rules.
The OP's question has been answered. Yes, you can activate Defensive Stance during a charge, after moving and before you attack. Whether you have an issue with the flavor of how it looks in your mind, or think it's "cheese", or think that's not how it should work is irrelevant.
It was my understanding that Free Action as a category exists precisely for the sake of *not* interrupting simultaneous actions such as you describe.
I never thought that the free action existed so that something could be done simultaneously with something else. Rather, it existed so as to have a category of action that would not to preclude other actions from the same category from being performed on the same turn.
Even then, there are limits to free actions. Just because you have a magic lantern that can be lit or extinguished as a free action does not mean you can use it as a 60 hertz strobe light. You could light it as a free action, see whatever was there to see, decide you didn't like what you saw, and extinguish it again all in the same turn and still have your 'regular' (swift, move and standard) actions remaining. That's what free actions are for.
Fair enough, Slim. Good point and example to boot. My DM will check out this thread, since I think the main points are laid out pretty well here. Dramatically, I imagine this guy charging to the position he will defend and kicking it off with a big boom. In our group, RAW takes a second seat to DM ruling anyway. All in all, I give it a 50/50.
Thanks for the responses. This was very helpful.
One of the more memorable scenes in 300 was where the Spartans met the Persian line at Thermopylae. The front lines slammed into one another. It struck me that that's probably exactly what ancient warfare was like: stalwart defenders butting shields and trying to push back and demoralize their opponents; to test the enemy's mettle.
Thinking of what you'd like to attempt on the battlefield (albeit the smaller-scale dungeons we all love) I could see an argument for rushing up to one's opponent, planting your feet and declaring "NO FURTHER!", but that would obviate the need for an actual charge (double movement, +2 to attack, -2 to AC, + draw a weapon). Why not simply run at your opponent and enter defensive stance? In-fact, why not use the charge to shield slam your opponent (Bull Rush)? Okay, not provoking an AOO from the bull rush is a good idea, but Greater Bull Rush would be a fine feat to take to supplement a Stalwart Defender.
Overrun can also be used as part of a charge, and fits with the idea of a front-line shield man attempting to knock his opponent down at the beginning of a battle. It's also considered an attack (hit your opponent's CMD with your CMB and risk an AOO unless you have Improved Overrun.)
SO...the way I would rule it IS...SORAWor "Spirit of the Rules as Written" (which is what I would like everyone on the forum to call it from now on): Charging is a different action than defending so:
a. Attack at the end of your charge (+2/-2) or
b. Enter Defensive Stance (+2/+4/+2)
If you choose a., you may enter defensive stance at the beginning of your next turn, when your momentum has stopped, and you have set your feet and entered that Stalwart Defender mental state. You don't get to combine the free action of Defensive Stance with the +2 of the charge unless you're on skates or a dolly or a forklift and being pushed by a halfling or gnome and have ALREADY entered the mental state of a Stalwart Defender.
Ah, my DM. Well, let's carry it on for posterity.
"Defensive Stance" is an ability with a leading label: defensive. Yet, the feat mechanics have nothing in common with defensive combat mechanics (e.g., no neg attack mods for being in a defensive position nor AC bonuses for that matter). It's just a special ability with a certain limitation that precludes movement. The Free Action status resolves the movement issue, and the rest is flavor. I would argue that it's actually in those less clear intersections of basic combat rules and Combat Feats where individual combat flavor comes through.
That said, your house rule works for me. I still get the movement and a good attack, just not with the Charge mods. Not bad, considering I'll be using Power Attack anyway. ;)
Correction, there's a +2 Dodge Bonus.
Correction, there's a +2 Dodge Bonus.
Yeah, it's that Dodge Bonus that has me convinced SORAW that charging into battle (-2 to AC) is a separate sort of action from establishing a Defensive Stance.
SORAWor "Spirit of the Rules as Written" (which is what I would like everyone on the forum to call it from now on)
I imagine we'll stick with RAI, rules as intended.
Couple relevant points:
The free action rules say, "You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. "
So you can do free actions simultaneously with something else.
That said, I think there is a RAW/RAI conflict with stalwart defender and charge. I tend to err in favor of RAW, but it's a judgement call.
I imagine we'll stick with RAI, rules as intended.
Sorry, that's not SORAW.
I would like to point out in the rules:
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
There comes a time when you have to PLAY the game, not adjudicate it away. In that spirit, I could give or take +2 to the intrepid charging Stalwart Defender and it would matter little in the grand scheme of things. I tend to err on the side of the players in any case. What I don't compromise on, is things MAKING SENSE. So...perform your Free Actions as you will, and everybody has a good time.
i thought somewhere it said that charge ends your turn.
i thought somewhere it said that charge ends your turn.
A charge is a special full-round attack that DOES take your entire turn, but Free Actions can get squeezed-in anywhere your GM allows.
Maybe Readying DS could ameliorate the situation. RAW is preserved, plus the player gives a little.