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Just looking for a bit of clarification on this ability:
Pact of Peace (Sp): At 8th level, a redeemer can force a defeated creature to accept a binding pact of peace as a condition of its surrender, as if using lesser geas. Her caster level for this ability is equal to her paladin level. Rather than assigning a mission or task, the redeemer gives the creature a simple set of prohibitions to protect others. Example geas include "Leave this city and do not return" or "Do not attack caravans." The prohibition must be against an area no larger than 300 square miles or one specific group of people (such as a tribe or citizens of a particular city). This ability lasts 1 month per paladin level. This replaces aura of resolve.
Given the presence of "defeated" and "surrender", it seems to sharply narrow the ability's usage if read literally.
What I'm wondering is:
1. Can a creature that has been knocked unconscious and is still unconscious be subject to the pact? (defeated, no surrender)
2. Can a creature that has been rendered helpless but refuses to willingly surrender be subject to the pact? (defeated, no surrender)
3. Can a creature that has surrendered with no use violence be subject to the pact? (technically defeated, surrendered)
4. Can a creature that is faking a surrender be subject to the pact? (not defeated, insincere surrender)
5. Can a willing nonhostile creature be subject to the pact? (technical surrender)
6. Can a creature be subject to more than one pact at a time? (to refine restrictions or block off loopholes in banned behavior)
Thanks!
It strikes me as a flavour thing, rather than an ability that will actually see much use. Given the Lawful and Good alignments of a Paladin, they'll have to adhere to both the letter and the spirit of a Pact of Peace. So:
- No.
- No.
- Yes.
- Yes.
- No. Paladins do not use loopholes.
- No, but you could use additional Geases or Marks of Justice.
The phrase "as a condition of its surrender" implies that we're talking about surrendering characters here. On the other hand, the same sentence says that this geas is applied "by force", which implies a disregard for the willingness of the participant.
I would interpret this as hinging on surrender and a willingness to negotiate with the redeemer, even insincerely (so, cases 3 and 4). I'd also let it apply to anyone, regardless of whether or not they've fought the paladin and been "defeated", so long as they're willing to enter a pact.
I can imagine creatures thinking they can dupe this silly paladin by saying "yeah yeah, I swear I'll stop eating their children.. okay I'll stop eating people - of any kind! OKAY FINE, vegetables only, are you happy now? Are you going to let me go or not?" only to find themselves under a geas. Your word is your honor when you deal with a redeemer, whether you like it or not.
I don't really see anything preventing multiple geases.. geasesesses... applications, except of course the paladin's code of conduct. Without multiple conditions, the ability is pretty weak. For example, let's say you capture an orc rogue who has been murdering people, and he agrees to stop harming people. The geas only applies to a 300 square mile area, so the orc could just move on to the next town and start killing them. That's a hell of a big loophole! The easiest way to patch this is to also prevent the orc from leaving that same area. Now he can't kill anyone without violating his geas. However that is definitely two distinct prohibitions.
I love love love the flavour of this archetype but the Pact of Peace ability doesn't seem well thought-out to me. They get it too late in the game, and forcing people to behave a certain way doesn't feel like redemption so much as justice. What they need is a form of the atonement spell, or something which allows them to actually convert evil. As Lincoln said, "Do I not also destroy my enemies when I make them my friend?"
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Yeah, the "just leave the geas-protected area" thing was a big worry for me too, as far as making the pact a potent tool.
I'd agree on the misgivings of the Pact as a way of forcing redemption(which really needs to be a willing thing), but I saw it as more of a tool to help redemption attempts rather than forcing them. Mainly because it helps deter the old excuse used by other party members to deny or sabotage such attempts: "it's safer to just kill them". Unfortunately that's where that area loophole rears its head.
I love the flavor of the archetype too. Just trying to figure out how best to make it work before Wrath of the Righteous hits. :)
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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Essentially, when you defeat a monster you have a very short list of choices. Kill it, Imprison it, or... enslave it?
This gives you some other options. I do think the defeated creature should have to agree with the pact, part of the point is the creature should be willing to reform. Additionally, I have a huge respect for free will and I don't see a paladin binding a creature against it's will.
I love Chris P's example of a creature that grudgingly agrees intending to break his word as soon as the paladin turns her back. Maybe the paladin knows the creature is lying, but is willing to accept the creature's grudging acceptance.
Honestly, I love the flavor of the archetype too, and I was tempted to take it for my current character (a Half-Orc ex-con paladin who believes everyone can be redeemed.) But losing Detect Evil hurts, and the fact you can do non-lethal ONLY while smiting is kind of a dealbreaker.
Instead I decided to play a vanilla paladin with the Blade of Mercy trait. You can now do nonlethal to ALL enemies, not just when you're smiting, AND you get +1 to all damage rolls!
(For extra fun, I also took the Enforcer feat and dipped into Rogue (Thug). Now every hit is a free action Intimidate check that causes the Frightened condition.)
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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I love love love the flavour of this archetype but the Pact of Peace ability doesn't seem well thought-out to me. They get it too late in the game, and forcing people to behave a certain way doesn't feel like redemption so much as justice. What they need is a form of the atonement spell, or something which allows them to actually convert evil. As Lincoln said, "Do I not also destroy my enemies when I make them my friend?"
Lesser geas is a 4th level spell, the redeemer gets this ability at 8th level. I know the ability is limited in a lot of ways, but it's the sort of ability characters get around 7th-8th level.
Atonement requires a genuine desire to change which is rarely going to be the case with a defeated foe.
As I said to Mikaze, I'm a huge fan of free-will and a spell that forcibly changes a creature seems morally reprehensible to me. This is meant as a compromise. While you can't force a creature to be good, you can limit it's ability to do harm.
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This gives you some other options. I do think the defeated creature should have to agree with the pact, part of the point is the creature should be willing to reform. Additionally, I have a huge respect for free will and I don't see a paladin binding a creature against it's will.
I have a deep respect for free will too. That's why I'm not a fan of the Helm of Opposite Alignment or sanctify the wicked(as written) as tools of redemption. And I don't think anyone is suggesting using the Pact to force a being to turn good or to enslave them. It's closer to prison than that.
It's less like the traditional geas and more of a deterrant. It doesn't manipulate the being's will, but rather lays out consequences for specific actions. They can still attempt evil acts, but they have to deal with the consequences. The pact's consequences are just automatic and possibly less lethal than getting sworded. It also helps fascilitate the real redemption work by disabling their ability to do harm(which again, helps deter some PCs that would otherwise try to cut those redemption attempts short).
Honestly, I love the flavor of the archetype too, and I was tempted to take it for my current character (a Half-Orc ex-con paladin who believes everyone can be redeemed.) But losing Detect Evil hurts, and the fact you can do non-lethal ONLY while smiting is kind of a dealbreaker.
Instead I decided to play a vanilla paladin with the Blade of Mercy trait. You can now do nonlethal to ALL enemies, not just when you're smiting, AND you get +1 to all damage rolls!
I'm still not sure if I'm going to go Redeemer or vanilla paladin either. Thematically, I absolutely love it, but I'm not sure if it'll have a chance to work well in Wrath of the Righteous or not until that AP gets closer. Still, given the themes suggested in WotR... I did completely forget mark of justice and Blade of Mercy though.
I wouldn't be surprised if the cues paizo gave for the Redeemer were 'half Orc paladin. Make mikaze happy.'
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Nah, there's been a lot of folks that have been aching for that sort of flavor support for a long time. That's it's primarily keyed to half-orcs is gravy. (really delicious gravy) I know I'm very, very grateful for this archetype though. :)
(the character I'm considering using it for is actually a tiefling, but they're in a similar thematic boat)
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Lesser geas is a 4th level spell, the redeemer gets this ability at 8th level. I know the ability is limited in a lot of ways, but it's the sort of ability characters get around 7th-8th level.
Atonement requires a genuine desire to change which is rarely going to be the case with a defeated foe.
As I said to Mikaze, I'm a huge fan of free-will and a spell that forcibly changes a creature seems morally reprehensible to me. This is meant as a compromise. While you can't force a creature to be good, you can limit it's ability to do harm.
Yeah, when I say that Pact of Peace comes too late in the game, I don't mean in terms of balance - I mean that, until they get it, they really aren't any better at redeeming enemies than anyone else. Sure, they get a small bonus to Diplomacy, but that isn't a big help, and there are a lot of other archetypes that give even better boosts to Diplomacy that have nothing to do with redemption.
Also, the 7 HD limit on lesser geas means it won't be useful for that long after you get it, either.
"You're beaten, blue dragon! Do you yield?"
".. yes, fine.. I yield, mortal."
"Well good. Now we're going to let you go, but only on one condition: promise you'll stop hunting and eating the people who live around this desert oasis, okay?"
"NO."
"Well, I tried."
I suppose it is likely to still work on a lot of humanoids you meet, which is sort of the focus of the archetype (rather than, say, dragons), but it still feels pretty disappointing to me.
And I didn't explain myself very well in my comments about Atonement; I wasn't trying to say that they should get an Atonement ability (though in retrospect, maybe adding it to their spell list as a level 4 wouldn't be unreasonable), but I wish they had some actual way of helping evil creatures atone and easing the transition towards goodness. I don't really know what to suggest, though preferably something that doesn't require them to follow the party around like lost puppies or anything like that. (That's at least one great thing about the geas effect: it's a fire-and-forget ability.) And importantly, it should appear fairly early in the archetype.
One thing I'd love to do is take Leadership as a redeemer, and fill up my cohort and follower slots with a mix of like-minded idealists and converted foes. Then we can start our own little village where humans and orcs live together in harmony, and the primary currency is puppy hugs and everyone has ranks in Craft: Friendship and okay maybe I got a little carried away there but you get the idea.
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One thing I'd love to do is take Leadership as a redeemer, and fill up my cohort and follower slots with a mix of like-minded idealists and converted foes. Then we can start our own little village where humans and orcs live together in harmony
That is the exact direction I hoped to take this character on the first go-round in Kingmaker. Don't really expect to have a chance at that in the Worldwound, but I'd love to give that a shot again, like in a Lastwall/Balkzen/Nirmathas/Molthrune game.