This is weird, why do rogues get the weapons they do? rapiers? but not longswords? Hand cross bows? but not a long bow which is very similar to a shortbow, in use.... rapier and hand crossbow seem very specific and specialized.
Someday I hope a better system for weapon selection exists like:
All simple 2 martial and 1 exotic.
or something along those lines.
I have a hard time picturing EVERY rogue knowing rapier and hand crossbow.
An artifact of that-which-came-before, I'd wager.
As Whale Cancer says, the rogue's (and other classes) weapon selection(s) date back to the First Age of D&D, about ~30 BPF, when each class was created.
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As Whale Cancer says, the rogue's (and other classes) weapon selection(s) date back to the First Age of D&D, about ~30 BPF, when each class was created.
lol @ BPF, I am going to use that. Suggests an epic history for pathfinder.
~40 BPF: "And in the first age, on the third day, Gary did devise the rogue, but called it a thief, and he saw that it was good and smiled."
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Rogues don't get proficiency with sword canes. That alone makes their proficiency list terrible.
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Rogue weapons are meant to be easy to conceal and generally favor finesse over strength. Hand crossbow is an example of the former and rapier is an example of the latter (as well being a bit more concealable than a long sword.)
Not to mention that rapiers are an elegant weapon, something you might see a nobleman wearing around town, whereas longswords are bit heftier and less likely to be worn to the ball. Rogue weapons are meant to be ones that are unlikely to draw attention and easily smuggled or otherwise carried.
Rogue weapons are meant to be easy to conceal and generally favor finesse over strength. Hand crossbow is an example of the former and rapier is an example of the latter (as well being a bit more concealable than a long sword.)Not to mention that rapier's are an elegant weapon, something you might see a nobleman wearing around town, whereas Longswords are bit heftier and less likely to be worn to the ball. Rogue weapons are meant to be ones that are unlikely to draw attention and easily smuggled or otherwise carried.
Really, any non-exotic finesse weapon and any weapon that grants a slight of hand bonus to conceal should be a default rogue weapon. Archetypes should play with the rogue weapon list much more often.
For instance, I picture an 'investigator' archetype rogue using a longsword insofar as it fits my mental image of an investigator attached to the town guard.
Weapon Group Proficiency Feats help with that.
What do Short Sword and Rapier have in common? They're both Martial weapons that can be Finessed. And Rogues, more so than any other class, are Kings of Weapon Finesse. It just works.
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I would've given rogues the whip-- it can be finessed, and the idea of sneak attacking from 15 feet away just seems too awesome to deny.
I think rogues' weapon proficiencies suit it-- it doesn't get all martial weapons, but it gets a few because it's more melee-focused than a spellcaster. I kind of wish more of Paizo's own classes played more with weapon proficiencies, instead of sticking so close to "simple and martial".
Rogues don't get proficiency with sword canes. That alone makes their proficiency list terrible.
Indeed.
I would've given rogues the whip-- it can be finessed, and the idea of sneak attacking from 15 feet away just seems too awesome to deny.
I think rogues' weapon proficiencies suit it-- it doesn't get all martial weapons, but it gets a few because it's more melee-focused than a spellcaster. I kind of wish more of Paizo's own classes played more with weapon proficiencies, instead of sticking so close to "simple and martial".
Especially since the Pain Taster can do it and it looks awesome.
This is weird, why do rogues get the weapons they do? rapiers? but not longswords? Hand cross bows? but not a long bow which is very similar to a shortbow, in use.... rapier and hand crossbow seem very specific and specialized.
Someday I hope a better system for weapon selection exists like:
All simple 2 martial and 1 exotic.
or something along those lines.
I have a hard time picturing EVERY rogue knowing rapier and hand crossbow.
Dude, why dont just make a house rule about players buying they´re proficiencies?
Fighter weapon proficiency cost
light armor 1
medium armor 1
heavy armor 1
light shield 1
heavy shield 1
tower shield 1
simple weapon default
martial weapon 1
so, with my fighter i want only light and medium armor, simple and martial weapons
and remaining 4 proficiency points, then i buy bastard sword (1 point), doble crossbow (1 point), unarmed attack (1 point), and... Katana (1 point). With this optional rule you can specialize your fighter (at expensive cost), but however, when one player figured one character, they decides which weapons he´s gonna take for his character. some of them, never in the entire character life pick a heavy armor or bow... or tower shield. i understand this specialization at some kind of school training, but, maybe my fighter miss the tower shield class for take the doble crossbow class wich was teached at the same time, so... decisions!!
:)
he was peeling potatoes in KP when they were teaching tower shield....
But longsword doesn't fit my mental image of the arms and armor for a standard town guard.
This is a road to nowhere fast.
Blame Errol Flynn for rapier proficiency.
Blame Bob Anderson for Errol Flynn's rapier proficiency :P
he was peeling potatoes in KP when they were teaching tower shield....
then switch the tower shield proficiency for 1 rank in profession (peeling potatoes)
but that´s the idea, i´ll guess it can work... don´t you think?
@Judas_147: Weapon Group Proficiency Feat. I think it helps out your concept.
@Judas_147: Weapon Group Proficiency Feat. I think it helps out your concept.
yea thats what i´m talking about... more simple yet!!
Wait are you saying mine is more simple or you want it simpler?
Wait are you saying mine is more simple or you want it simpler?
maybe a bit of both but yours is the simpliest way. i like it
I just took the idea of 3.5's Weapon Group Feats and used PFRPGs Fighter Weapon Groups to list the Weapons under each.
yea, something sorta like the old 1E way of doing it, I never like ALL martial weapons, really... but leveling should get you access to new proficiencies or should we just leave that to feats?
The System I posted allows you to start with say 5 Groups.
Say a Fighter with Heavy Blades, Light Blades, Axes, Bows, & Exotic Weapons. That means he can wield every Heavy Blade, Light Blade, Axe, & Bow thanks to Exotic Weapons. Plus Basic & Natural Weapons.
Say his group finds a Magic Spear. He can then spend a Feat for Weapon Group Proficiency in Spears.
You guys do realize that Town Guards were usually the Town Militia. Meaning they usually had Martial Weapons available.
You can always pick up a longspear. Two-handed reach weapon + combat reflexes = more opportunities for sneak attack shennanigans.
simple weapons must be free for all, but armors dont. as a pendagast says, maybe more weapon proficiencies as in 1e 2nd e
in that way youll get a wizard using a longsword, poorly but using it.
weapon proficiencies from 2ndE
warrior 4 every 3 levels
wizard 1 every 6 levels
priest 2 every 4 levels
rogue 2 every 4 levels
now we need the way for making beter (one profeiciency buy one armor/shield or one weapon) assuming every class can use simple weapons from start with aditional those points to buy...
i realy like the idea!!
but as many of the house rules cames a moment that it brokes (mine mostly broke reaching level 12th-14th)
Pendagast, i can´t remember the arcane spell failure for 2nd E, can you help me here please? because that´s will be the first issue that i can see with this option
One reason why I made my system was for building such Wizards easier and helping me focus my Fighters better.
Yes, defining where our mental images diverge is a zero-sum game; but I maintain that one doesn't (generally) find a town guard running around with high-end weaponry. They don't usually need it, and nobody wants to pay for outfitting it. Maybe in wartime, a siege, etc., you'll find the guard carrying more "military" weapons.But longsword doesn't fit my mental image of the arms and armor for a standard town guard.This is a road to nowhere fast.
A longsword costs 5 more gp than a short sword.
Equal to the difference between padded and leather.
Edit: The Guard entry also explicitly calls out longsword as a valid guard weapon.
I usually like my Town guards to have cheap weapons. And less messy ones. Swords are messy.
To the OP.
I think Rapiers are a more civilian weapon where the longsword is a more military one.
I've never understood why the hand crossbow is an exotic weapon at all. The principle for firing one is pretty much the same as the big ones. Unless it's also a repeater, which also is a weird choice for exotic. These are easy to use.
But have you ever tried to use a stone age sling? That thing is a pain in the butt. It makes Nunchuks look like a huntin knife.
I hate to admit I took to the Sling easier than the crossbow...
But I tend to make Hand Crossbows and Repeating Crossbows Martial Weapons.
I'm impressed then.
I used to hunt with a crossbow. I don't miss with a Barrett.
But a sling makes me a threat to any random object within 100 yards. Including my own skull. I find a Lansing Dart easier.
I usually like my Town guards to have cheap weapons. And less messy ones. Swords are messy.
To the OP.
I think Rapiers are a more civilian weapon where the longsword is a more military one.I've never understood why the hand crossbow is an exotic weapon at all. The principle for firing one is pretty much the same as the big ones. Unless it's also a repeater, which also is a weird choice for exotic. These are easy to use.
But have you ever tried to use a stone age sling? That thing is a pain in the butt. It makes Nunchuks look like a huntin knife.
of course rapier is most civilized weapon because was made in the renaissant
some of you have read Ravenloft players guide?
there comes the outcastrating and cultural level rule... i recomend you that
I usually like my Town guards to have cheap weapons. And less messy ones. Swords are messy.
To the OP.
I think Rapiers are a more civilian weapon where the longsword is a more military one.I've never understood why the hand crossbow is an exotic weapon at all. The principle for firing one is pretty much the same as the big ones. Unless it's also a repeater, which also is a weird choice for exotic. These are easy to use.
But have you ever tried to use a stone age sling? That thing is a pain in the butt. It makes Nunchuks look like a huntin knife.
of course rapier is most civilized weapon because was made in the renaissant
some of you have read Ravenloft players guide?
there comes the outcastrating and cultural level rule... i recomend you that
Is that system in the AD&D book? or a 4E book?
Is that system in the AD&D book? or a 4E book?I usually like my Town guards to have cheap weapons. And less messy ones. Swords are messy.
To the OP.
I think Rapiers are a more civilian weapon where the longsword is a more military one.I've never understood why the hand crossbow is an exotic weapon at all. The principle for firing one is pretty much the same as the big ones. Unless it's also a repeater, which also is a weird choice for exotic. These are easy to use.
But have you ever tried to use a stone age sling? That thing is a pain in the butt. It makes Nunchuks look like a huntin knife.
of course rapier is most civilized weapon because was made in the renaissant
some of you have read Ravenloft players guide?
there comes the outcastrating and cultural level rule... i recomend you that
3.5
you can search for the handbook somewhere because its out of print at the date...
some piracy of something which is not available anymore i dont think it would be illegal
It is available via without legal issues if you can find it outlined online as it was reprinted in a 3.5 Splat Book as an Alternate Rule.