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My regular group is about to start Second Darkness and it just so happens that my beloved, but not very optimized, knifemaster is from Riddleport.
That's always been a big part of roleplaying this character, so the DM has asked me to bring him back for this AP. However, I get to rebuild him since we're starting from 1.
I've got two different builds worked up to 10. The difference is the inclusion of a shadowdancer dip in the first build (and the necessary feat tax). The DM has expressed interest in seeing a shadowdancer in play and seems to have an idea or two about how to tie that into plot elements, but I'm not sure it's worth it. It does however, get me darkvision and uncanny dodge -- should I choose to give up the latter for a second archetype.
Which brings me to my questions -- a) which build do you guys like better and b) were I to add a second archetype, would bandit or scout work better?
Lv.1 (Human): Opening Volley
Lv.1 (Rogue 1): Two-Weapon Fighting
Lv.2 (Rogue 2): Finesse Rogue
Lv.3 (Rogue 3): Quick Draw
Lv.4 (Rogue 4): Weapon Training: Dagger
Lv.5 (Fighter 1): Dodge, Mobility
Lv.6 (Fighter 2): Combat Reflexes
Lv.7 (Shadowdancer 1): Close Quarters Thrower, HiPS
Lv.8 (Shadowdancer 2): Darkvision, Uncanny Dodge
Lv.9 (Rogue 5): False Opening
Lv.10 (Rogue 6): Offensive Defense
Lv.1 (Human): Opening Volley
Lv.1 (Rogue 1): Two-Weapon Fighting
Lv.2 (Rogue 2): Finesse Rogue
Lv.3 (Rogue 3): Quick Draw
Lv.4 (Rogue 4): Weapon Training: Dagger
Lv.5 (Fighter 1): Dodge, Close Quarters Thrower
Lv.6 (Fighter 2): False Opening
Lv.7 (Rogue 5): Precise Shot
Lv.8 (Rogue 6): Combat Trick: Point Blank Shot
Lv.9 (Rogue 7): Clustered Shots
Lv.10 (Rogue 8): Offensive Defense
Stats were rolled and I rolled well: Str - 15, Dex - 20, Con - 14, Int - 12, Wis - 11, Cha - 13
I play the character like most melee TWF rogues; throwing is mostly to keep me out of trouble if I can't flank and to take advantage of the dagger's versatility. After I pick up false opening, it becomes more useful.
A final note: Is there anything you folks feel strongly should be worked in? Piranha Strike? Something else?
Thanks, boards!
does scout mix with knife master?
does scout mix with knife master?
They don't replace or alter the same features, so yes. If we're talking about how well they mix, that's a matter of opinion but most seem to feel it works well.
this might be too much of a departure from your original but this is what I would do...
Human [Focused Study]
Barbarian 1/Fighter [Lore Warden] 10
1- Weapon Finesse
H1- Skill Focus [Stealth]
F1- Two-Weapon Fighting
3- Eldritch Heritage [Umbral]
F2- Weapon Focus [Kukri]
bonus- Combat Expertise
5- Two-Weapon Defense
F4- Weapon Specialization [Kukri]
7- Butterfly Sting
F6- Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
H8- Skill Focus [Acrobatics]
9- Improved Critical [Kukri]
F8- Critical Focus
11- Improved Eldritch Heritage [Umbral]
F10- Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Training: Blades- Light +2, Heavy +1
traits- Highlander, Dangerously Curious (or any other)
you'll be great at stealth, and starting at 11th have Hide in Plain Sight. you lose sneak attack but (i think) more than make up for it with extra attacks, higher damage, and more crits. and with butterfly's sting if someone else makes a 2-hander guy (especially one with a high crit multiplier) you can give up your crits to give them ones. you could trade out the barb level for a ranger (or even cavalier) level... favored enemy (when you get to use it) is basically a wash with rage in terms of combat benefit but the +10' move is handy (the main reason for that 1 level dip is so you can take Gr 2-wpn fighting and Imp Eldritch Heritage both at 11th- so it could be any full-BAB class)
edit- some GMs allow wildblooded bloodlines with Eldritch Heritage, some don't (personally, i think RAW don't really allow it) so you may have to switch "umbral" for shadow- the 9th level power is the same either way and that's what you're really going for (its very shadowdancer-esque)
even if you're not interested in this approach, i hope there's something useful in there for you.
I wouldnt go shadow dancer.... it doesnt actually do much for your SA with hips.
i think a scout knife master would do more for your SA synergy
I wouldnt go shadow dancer.... it doesnt actually do much for your SA with hips.
i think a scout knife master would do more for your SA synergy
HiPS is the icing, it's the second level of Shadowdancer that's interesting for this character. That being said, I could save myself a feat and take Shadow Strike or go the Eldritch Heritage route. Probably good advice.
River Rat is a must have trait for Knifemaster Rogues. Characters from Riddleport? Perfect. There's a river there!
Good call -- I'm sold! It was on my short list, along with Reactionary, Strong Arm and Supple Wrist and a few others.
I would suggest getting the Ki Pool Talent and then vanishing trick+invisible blade. That fulfills the shadow part of shadow dancer, and you get ..always sneak attack with d8's!
Any other tips? How much might I miss darkvision in Second Darkness (without real spoilers, please)? Is the false opening gimmick too dangerous? There are other ways to get sneak attack from feats, but none that I know of for all the attacks on a full attack, like this does.
I haven't got further than the 1st book in Second Darkness so I can't help you there. We've only used Low Light Vision so far.
Here are some was to get sneak attack full attacks.
Scout+Pounce. This is possible by being a catfolk or Kitsune and getting their pounce feats. Course then you'd just get cat's claws and not knifemaster.
Dazzling Display+Shatter Defenses+Cornugon Smash. Three great feats that work great with a rogue. Stack up that intimidate and you're golden.
The Rogue Talents/Ninja Tricks Vanishing Trick and Invisible Blade. You'll need to get the Ki Pool Rogue Talent to get you a ninja's ki pool but if pays off with infinite sneak attacks after level 10.
Sap Adept/Master+Enforcer. Similar idea to the Cornugon Smash build but a little bit more difficult to pull off.
Or you could just have a caster use greater invisibility on you. Another reason why Alchemist's are annoyingly better rogues than rogues.
In older editions I ended up making Shadow Dancer Weapon Masters, and he was a blast. Was wondering in your second build how did you get precise shot before point blank? Either seam like good builds. I personally like the shadow dancer class, but have seen some tricked out dagger chunkers, throwing weapon master from Complete Warrior, and he dropped a ton of damage without the damage die boost.
In older editions I ended up making Shadow Dancer Weapon Masters, and he was a blast. Was wondering in your second build how did you get precise shot before point blank? Either seam like good builds. I personally like the shadow dancer class, but have seen some tricked out dagger chunkers, throwing weapon master from Complete Warrior, and he dropped a ton of damage without the damage die boost.
The Precise Shot/Point Blank Shot thing is an oversight, thanks for pointing it out, I'll have to correct that.
And Urist, thanks for the tips. I'm also looking at getting sneak attack on full attacks with Close Quarters Thrower/False Opening.
Right now the builds look something like this
Lv.1 (Human): Skill Focus (Stealth)
Lv.1 (Rogue 1): Two-Weapon Fighting
Lv.2 (Rogue 2): Finesse Rogue
Lv.3 (Rogue 3): Weapon Focus: Dagger
Lv.4 (Rogue 4): Offensive Defense
Lv.5 (Fighter 1): Dodge, Mobility
lv.6 (Fighter 2): Combat Reflexes
Lv.7 (Shadowdancer 1): Close Quarters Thrower
Lv.8 (Shadowdancer 2): Skill Focus (Acrobatics)
Lv.9 (Rogue 5): False Opening
Lv.10 (Rogue 6): Combat Trick: Quick Draw, Fast Stealth
Lv.11 (Rogue 7): Point Blank Shot
lv.12 (Rogue 8): Underhanded
and
Lv.1 (Human): Weapon Finesse
Lv.1 (Rogue 1): Two-Weapon Fighting
Lv.2 (Rogue 2): Offensive Defense
Lv.3 (Rogue 3): Shadow Strike
Lv.4 (Rogue 4): Weapon Training: Dagger
Lv.5 (Fighter 1): Dodge, Close Quarters Thrower
lv.6 (Fighter 2): False Opening
Lv.7 (Rogue 5): Point Blank Shot
Lv.8 (Rogue 6): Combat Trick: Quick Draw, Fast Stealth
Lv.9 (Rogue 7): Precise Shot
Lv.10 (Rogue 8): Underhanded
Lv.11 (Rogue 9): Clustered Shots
lv.12 (Rogue 10): Crippling Strike
Of which the second is -- to my eye -- very clearly better. That about sorts it out for me. Thanks, boards!
I would agree the second starts off stronger and looks better overall.