metamagic staff

[agentJay]

I have a few questions. My player wants to buy or create a metamagic rod. Once you create one of lesser can you change it to normal by adding the cost difference? If so can you also change it from lesser to normal to greater?

She also wants to use a staff as her main weapon. She wants to have the staff as a magic item but does not want to have to use a rod to do the metamagic so she wonders if she can combine the rod into the construction/creation of the magic staff?

Any rules on this? If so where?
Any thoughts on this? I wonder if having a staff that you can recharge and cast metamagic out of 3 times per day is too powerful?

[Ravingdork]

There are no rules specifically for that, but I believe it the intent to allow such things. There are also similar rules and rulings. For example, game developers have already stated that it is okay to make a +1 armor into a +5 armor by paying the difference, and also to make a flaming weapon into a flaming burst weapon.

These things together lead me to believe that you can do exactly as you describe.

Also, if you want a metamagic staff, you should look into the Staff of the Master.

My character, Sela Kurn, uses one.

[agentJay]

Ravingdork wrote:

Also, if you want a metamagic staff, you should look into the Staff of the Master.

My character, Sela Kurn, uses one.

WOW is all I can say about that staff. I don't see how it is crafted to be able to use any 1 metamagic feat that the player knows by using up charges. Seems to me that can be on any staff as I don't see how they added it to that staff (to be able to cost it out). Sure wish the crafting (non)rules could be better defined so anyone could figure out how things are priced and how to go about making items.

• These are the spells that can not under any circumstances be used to make magic items. (List the spells here).
• These are the spells that can not be used as potions/oils. (List them here).
• This is how you cost out metamagic items. (Formula here).
• This is how you make major and minor artifacts and how to destroy them. (Info here).
• This is how you make intelligent items and how to run them. (Info here).
• These are the example command words to activate items. (Command word list here).

etc.
So many things seem ... not finished that it gives me a headache. Not trying to be a jerk but it would seem that since the game Pathfinder is based on has been out for years and now so has Pathfinder that these things would of been found/discussed/focused on.

P.S. Not trying to start a war or offend anyone, just my opinion. I am in no way a business major nor do I know how to run a company.

[The Golux]

...man it sure would be nice if they said what spells the staves of the master for the other schools would give, though I assume they would be one each from levels 1, 2, and 3...

[Ravingdork]

I agree Golux. I would allow a player to have his own version (as I did with Sela), but I would limit them to one each of 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells from the appropriate school.

I also believe that is the intent too. It may have been omitted in editing, or perhaps they figured we'd be smart enough to switch it out on a 1-for-1 basis and keep the price (and theoretical power level) the same.

[Vestrial]

Ravingdork wrote:

I agree Golux. I would allow a player to have his own version (as I did with Sela), but I would limit them to one each of 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells from the appropriate school.

I also believe that is the intent too. It may have been omitted in editing, or perhaps they figured we'd be smart enough to switch it out on a 1-for-1 basis and keep the price (and theoretical power level) the same.

There's really no reason to have that limitation. The rules for adding spells to staves are clear, so you can really have a staff of the master with any number/level of spells, so long as you pay for it.

[Blueluck]

Vestrial wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

I agree Golux. I would allow a player to have his own version (as I did with Sela), but I would limit them to one each of 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells from the appropriate school.

I also believe that is the intent too. It may have been omitted in editing, or perhaps they figured we'd be smart enough to switch it out on a 1-for-1 basis and keep the price (and theoretical power level) the same.

There's really no reason to have that limitation. The rules for adding spells to staves are clear, so you can really have a staff of the master with any number/level of spells, so long as you pay for it.

The reason not to mess with the total value of spells added to the staff is that we can't be sure if they're priced at the regular rate or not.

Two of these properties costs have been increased by 50% to account for being on the same item, or else either a or b received a discount for sharing charges/day with the other:
a) Magic Weapon +1
b) Staff with 3 spells
c) Metamagic capability
Which was priced at what level?

[Vestrial]

Blueluck wrote:

Two of these properties costs have been increased by 50% to account for being on the same item, or else either a or b received a discount for sharing charges/day with the other:

a) Magic Weapon +1
b) Staff with 3 spells
c) Metamagic capability
Which was priced at what level?

It's really not complicated.

+1 = 2k.
3 low level spells = a few k. (Not going to bother doing the math)

Those are obviously the lesser cost abilities, and so would be multipled by 1.5. Whats left is the cost of the metamagic.

(This is assuming they use the 1.5x modifier on staves, which I'm not sure they do. The language of staff creation is rather ambiguous, but I think this is a safe bet to get 'close enough'.)

[Blueluck]

Vestrial wrote:

Blueluck wrote:

Two of these properties costs have been increased by 50% to account for being on the same item, or else either a or b received a discount for sharing charges/day with the other:

a) Magic Weapon +1
b) Staff with 3 spells
c) Metamagic capability
Which was priced at what level?

It's really not complicated.

+1 = 2k.
3 low level spells = a few k. (Not going to bother doing the math)

Those are obviously the lesser cost abilities, and so would be multipled by 1.5. Whats left is the cost of the metamagic.

(This is assuming they use the 1.5x modifier on staves, which I'm not sure they do. The language of staff creation is rather ambiguous, but I think this is a safe bet to get 'close enough'.)

You may be wrong about adding a +50% modifier for the staff spells, as seen here, "Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a character's body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities."

If "It's really not complicated." then show us the numbers.

[Vestrial]

Blueluck wrote:

You may be wrong about adding a +50% modifier for the staff spells, as seen here, "Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a character's body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities."

I always assumed weapons were 'slotted' items since you have to hold them to use them, but I just checked and they don't appear in the list of slotted items. Nor are they in the slotless list, lol. Since they must be wielded, I'm inclined to treat them as a slotted item. The rules for staves almost cover it, since they talk about adding multiple abilities, but each explicitly refers to spells.

Quote:

Multiple different abilities Multiply lower item cost by 1.5

Quote:

If "It's really not complicated." then show us the numbers.

Spells:

Vamp touch: 400 x 3 x 8 = 9600/2 = 4800
Spec hand: 300 x 2 x 8 = 4800
Ray: 200 x 1 x 8 = 1600
Total: 11,200

+1 = 2000

If using sloted rules, spells and enhancement are less than half the cost of the staff, therefore the metamagic trick is the most expensive. So both of these are increased by 50%.

Final cost:
Spells: 16,800
+1: 3,000
Metamagic: 11,000

If the +50% doesn't apply to staves, it's:

Spells: 11,200
+1: 2,000
Metamagic: 16,800

If you follow the slotless rules, it's:

Spells: 8,400
+1: 1,000
Metamagic: 20,600

The first or second make the most sense. Following the slotless rules would allow you to get huge discounts on high level spells, which doesn't seem right to me.

[ZZTRaider]

Staff of the Master is a +1/+1 quarterstaff, so you need to add the price of the +1 enhancement a second time. It's not clear to me whether the listed price includes the price of a masterwork quarterstaff or not.

[Blueluck]

I realized that my previous comment came out a bit snarky, and I apologize for that.

A) Spells: 16,800 | +1: 3,000 | Metamagic: 11,000
B) Spells: 11,200 | +1: 2,000 | Metamagic: 16,800
C) Spells: 08,400 | +1: 1,000 | Metamagic: 20,600

Three possible answers, and the one that follows an applicable rule is the one that makes the least sense? (Also, the +1/+1 on the staff could mean that it's enchanted as a double weapon.) The price of the unique portion varies from 11,000-20,600 gold. I think it's reasonable to say that we're not sure how to price the item.

I'll take option A, get rid of the weapon property, dump the level 2 & 3 spells, and have this item:

Staff of the Efficient Master:

Price 13,400 gp; Aura moderate abjuration; CL 8th; Weight 5 lbs.

Often enchanted onto a magicians Bonded Item staff upon reaching 8th level, to gain increased access to metamagic without having to learn lame feats. This staff allows use of the following spells:

Shield (1 charge)

In addition, this staff can be used to cast spells using any metamagic feats known by the wielder without increasing the spell's level. This consumes a number of charges equal to the number of spell levels increased by the feat. No more than one feat can be applied to a spell cast by the wielder in this way. Using the staff for this purpose does not increase the casting time of the spell.

Construction Requirements
Cost 6,700 gp, Craft Staff, Shield

Or, if the double weapon is included.

Staff of the Even More Efficient Master:

Price 10,400 gp; Aura moderate abjuration; CL 8th; Weight 5 lbs.

Often enchanted onto a magicians Bonded Item staff upon reaching 8th level, to gain increased access to metamagic without having to learn lame feats. This staff allows use of the following spells:

Shield (1 charge)

In addition, this staff can be used to cast spells using any metamagic feats known by the wielder without increasing the spell's level. This consumes a number of charges equal to the number of spell levels increased by the feat. No more than one feat can be applied to a spell cast by the wielder in this way. Using the staff for this purpose does not increase the casting time of the spell.

Construction Requirements
Cost 5,200 gp, Craft Staff, Shield

[Vestrial]

The cost of double weapon is in there. 2k is the price of +1, not the cost. I did forget masterwork, though, not that it matters much.

C is actually right out. Weapons are never priced as slotless items.

Are there any other staves that have an enhancement bonus? If so it should be easy to figure if it's A or B.

[Ravingdork]

Just reverse engineer the existing staff and see if we can get a number that matches that in the book. That will offer up some insight as to whether or not the masterwork cost is included, whether any one component has a 50% price hike, etc.

[Vestrial]

Ravingdork wrote:

Just reverse engineer the existing staff and see if we can get a number that matches that in the book. That will offer up some insight as to whether or not the masterwork cost is included, whether any one component has a 50% price hike, etc.

I just did that two posts ago. We need an existing staff with an enhancement bonus because we can reverse engineer that with certainty.

[Blueluck]

Vestrial wrote:

The cost of double weapon is in there. 2k is the price of +1, not the cost. I did forget masterwork, though, not that it matters much.

Ah, my mistake, I misunderstood.

Vestrial wrote:

C is actually right out. Weapons are never priced as slotless items.

Are staves priced as slotless? They seem to be.

[Vestrial]

Blueluck wrote:

Are staves priced as slotless? They seem to be.

What leads you to that conclusion? The generic rules say to double cost for slotless items, nothing in the 'creating staves' section says to do so. Nor do their prices indicate they are.

[agentJay]

Yes I have cast raise dead on this but I would like some more clarification. If you look at the linkthe second sentence states

click here:

This particular staff is for the school of necromancy.

so how would you stat up one for different schools. Say I have a Transmutation wizard, how would I pick which spells to put on the staff? What about if it was a Conjuration wizard? and do I have to pick spells that are specialized such as only from calling? Or only from creation. Or only from healing or summoning or teleportation? Just want to make sure I am doing this right.

Thanks,

+J

[Vestrial]

agentJay wrote:

Yes I have cast raise dead on this but I would like some more clarification. If you look at the linkthe second sentence states ** spoiler omitted **so how would you stat up one for different schools. Say I have a Transmutation wizard, how would I pick which spells to put on the staff? What about if it was a Conjuration wizard? and do I have to pick spells that are specialized such as only from calling? Or only from creation. Or only from healing or summoning or teleportation? Just want to make sure I am doing this right.

Thanks,

+J

If you're trying to duplicate the staff's cost, just choose whatever spells of appropriate school/level strike your fancy.

[Kiba214]

Other easy example....
Staff of the Woodlands Creation: Cost 50,500 gp

For the spells with charge CL=13
9100=400x7xCL/4 Animate plants
7800=300x6xCL/3 Summon nature's ally VI (3 charges)
4333=200x5xCL/3 Wall of thorns (3 charges)
2600=200x2xCL/2 Barkskin
2600=200x1xCL Charm animal
2600=200x1xCL Speak with animals
=29033

For the Spell Effect : pass without trace at will
=2000x13=26000 or 13000(50% similar) or 2000?

For the master staff +2
2x(2x2)x2000=16000
=16000

Add weapon master craft =300x2
=600

Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost.For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.

=71633 or 60633 or 47633
Nop 50,500 gp = (In the best case we have a hole of 2867 gp)

[Kiba214]

Oups find

29033 is the only cost of creation

29033
13000
8000
300

=50333 =50500gp

[Kiba214]

Price 30,000 gp or 15300 for creation; Aura moderate necromancy; CL 8th; Weight 5 lbs.

Vamp touch: 400 x 3 x 8 = 9600/2 = 4800
Spec hand: 300 x 2 x 8 = 4800
Ray: 200 x 1 x 8 = 1600
Total: 11,200 for creation
=22400

For the master staff +1
2x(1x1)x2000=4000
=4000

Add weapon master craft =300x2
=600

Meta magic option
=?

Total
=27000+?=30000

3000gp full price for the meta magic option? (or 13500+?1800?=15300 if creation)