Goblin Squad Member
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So there has been some discussion on how bandits could or would function, considering the alignment system, the flagging system and anti griefing efforts.
According to the recent Dev Blog, there will be a "stand and deliver" option. What are some ways this could work, through game mechanics?
Personally, I'm not interested in using magic solutions, such as crowd control or root spells.
Perhaps a reputation / intimidation roll could be used to make it more likely that the SAD (lol, just realized the acronym) more likely to occur.
Perhaps killing just a few would result in the surrender. Reducing the alignment / criminal flagging hit.
Maybe there could be a means to deal subduing damage, knocking out the targets. Which would not trigger the flag or other consequence systems.
Your thoughts.....
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Goblin Squad Member
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Doesn't seem like it could work like that to me because you would assert a behavior on a person.
I don't really know how that sort of mechanic could work where the player being SADed is fully capable of exercising their own volition.
Perhaps the bandit elects to stop the trader with a SAD ultimatum instead of simply assaulting the guy. The trader is then confronted with a choice: either pay the tibute/fee and go on his way unharmed or refuse and go into flagless mano y mano combat like a duel?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Being,
Yes it would be more difficult to convince a PC not to fight. But first there has to be a means to even stop him from moving.
What could be the mechanic to do that?
Will an attack or simply a challenge bring a caravan to a halt? That is a question that needs to be answered. Without a way to bring the caravan to a halt, without attacking, then the SAD won't happen anyway.
Maybe the solution is killing the oxen / horses... Oh no! PETA will put an infinite bounty on my head.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well you've played Fallout2, right? When you talk to someone everyone stops until a choice is made.
The problem I see with that is that there are other people than just those two. The bandit has to know there isn't a unit of light horse on the way from the next town, because if he is stuck in conversation he's gonna be caught in the open I guess.
Or maybe he could trigger it from within the hideout? If the merchant pays his dues, so to speak, or 'local road tax'the bandit gets to stay hidden and the merchant gets to continue on his way.
Of course the next time that merchant will likely go the log way 'round to avoid the spot you stopped him last time.
@Being,
Yes it would be more difficult to convince a PC not to fight. But first there has to be a means to even stop him from moving.
What could be the mechanic to do that?
Will an attack or simply a challenge bring a caravan to a halt? That is a question that needs to be answered. Without a way to bring the caravan to a halt, without attacking, then the SAD won't happen anyway.
Maybe the solution is killing the oxen / horses... Oh no! PETA will put an infinite bounty on my head.
Well the bandits could always block the roadway, that would force the caravan to halt.
What about having the SAD command trigger a pop up box that shows the caravans relative power compared to the bandits relative power? Similar to /con in EQ, so the caravan will know how much of a chance they stand in winning a fight with the bandits? This could be a way to intimidate the caravan into just paying for passage by proving they would lose in a battle.
I doubt GW would give us flags if the PITA people met with untimely accidents? :p
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Wait... the criminal system and flags are intended specifically to cover the case of banditry.
The risk of the target fighting, running off, or of reinforcements arriving are part of the risk the bandit takes when he enters parley rather than combat. (If he jumps straight to fighting, similar risks also apply...)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe there could be a means to deal subduing damage, knocking out the targets. Which would not trigger the flag or other consequence systems.
Your thoughts.....
I would have thought even using a stand and deliver method of stealing would still flag you for criminal activity, because, well you ARE still performing a criminal act aren't you?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wait... the criminal system and flags are intended specifically to cover the case of banditry.
The risk of the target fighting, running off, or of reinforcements arriving are part of the risk the bandit takes when he enters parley rather than combat. (If he jumps straight to fighting, similar risks also apply...)
I'm not worried about the risks of the flag system. I'm trying to figure out how the Stand and Deliver system might work within the mechanics of the game.
@Marthian,
Once solution might be to wound or kill your animals, thus slowing or stopping your carriage.
I'd still say that we may have to have a demonstration of force to convince the target it might be better to SAD than to fight it out.
Perhaps if the target chooses not to SAD, it becomes a limited, consensual PVP and then let the better combatants win.
I thought it would be simple: Pay up or we are going to chase.
Because seriously, if you're in the business of robbing people through "Toll" fees, you better have the speed to do so. Why should I stop my carriage when I can just outrun you guys?
Were I a bandit I would certainly have a horse which would allow me to overtake a wagon or even a carriage easily. If they just won't stop, run ahead dismount and shoot the animals pulling the wagon.
I would have thought even using a stand and deliver method of stealing would still flag you for criminal activity, because, well you ARE still performing a criminal act aren't you?
How would the game recognize that a criminal act was performed? If no one was attacked nor anything "stolen", the game would just see it as one player gave another player coin and or goods. I'm not trying to say extortion isn't a criminal act, just trying to figure out how the game would be able to know what happened to issue the correct flags?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Simple solution... a caravan travels reasonably slower off of a roadway that it does on one. Have bandits that are targeting them either ambush or erect a minor barricade that has to be cleared for the SAD scenario. If they try and circumvent the barricade, they'll slow considerably and be significantly more vulnerable to attack. They can try and breach the barricade, but wound and risk killing their horses and damaging their caravan which would make them somewhat more vulnerable to attack. Or they could hire mercenaries that engage the barricade and bandits outright.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Extortion isn't a crime, the government does it all the time.
Seriously tho, paying a toll or tax is really just extortion from a different point of view.
Will it be a "world" crime like killing or a "player-toggled" settlement/kingdom crime? But since banditry will be a flagable offense, there would have to be a mechanic that detects the difference between player commerce and conflict. Being held up is a conflict, even if just a passive one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe a Thiefs' disarm traps / create traps skill could be modified to include traps capable of crippling a wagon.
Caltrops or a spike strip thrown across the pack animals' path could work as well. Even the threat of taking out the animals might be more intimidating then killing guards. A caravan and its cargo will go no where without its animals, it can without its guards.
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Goblin Squad Member
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meh .. a lot of fuss about nothing
- heavily laden PCs will be slow
- Hard to run from a fireball.
- killing or looting the npc wagons should provoke a reaction from any accompanying PCs.
Its all hypothetical until we know more about the game mechanics.
Slightly off topic ... what is to stop the merchant filling his inventory with useless crap to reduce the likelihood of bandits getting anything useful?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think if people are asking for some foolproof looting system where whenever they choose to accost a lower level weaker PC that person is prevented from fleeing and then either:
a) fights and dies
OR
b) gives up his stuff and maybe still dies if the bandits decide to be smart-arses and kill him regardless
... well I cannot see the devs being to likely to play along.
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Goblin Squad Member
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meh .. a lot of fuss about nothing
- heavily laden PCs will be slow
- Hard to run from a fireball.
- killing or looting the npc wagons should provoke a reaction from any accompanying PCs.Its all hypothetical until we know more about the game mechanics.
Slightly off topic ... what is to stop the merchant filling his inventory with useless crap to reduce the likelihood of bandits getting anything useful?
You mean, like using a decoy? Yes, that is certainly possible. I certainly hope that some do so. It would not be much of a challenge if we are always successful.
I would also probably slaughter a decoy caravan. The attacker / thief flag and the ruthless reputation will only make the SAD work better the next time. A bandit will have to strike a careful balance between when to use force and when not to.
If we don't prove that we are dangerous, once in a while, we won't be able to intimidate a merchant to SAD. But if we kill too often, they won't SAD either.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I remember the blogs correctly, there was a mention of terrain being an important factor. If the bandit hideout controlled a specific choke point, they could use two camouflaged catapults precisely pre-targeted. Bandit scouts observe the caravan entering the choke point, magically signal catapult team 1 to fire a warning shot right in front of the caravan. The bandits now appear with a SAD or they will crush the caravan. If the toll is paid the bandits kindly move the catapult shot from the path. If not the second catapult unloads with a spreading shot to disable the majority of the NPCs then they attack the PCs. During the SAD discussion the first catapult reloads and targets the rear of the caravan trying to prevent retreat if signaled by the bandits. Afterwards the bandits (aided by the NPCs remaining alive) clear up the area and use wagons from the hideout to make their own disguised caravan to go sell there ill gotten goods.
Granted they probably kill off the remaining NPCs to protect their hideout location, as the PCs are most likely all dead and never got to see the actual hideout location. After the second success things become both easier and harder. More caravans pay the toll, but more PCs come looking for the bandits.
This presumes that catapults can be used for hideouts as I also seem to remember a blog saying that they were for settlements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Being,
Yes it would be more difficult to convince a PC not to fight. But first there has to be a means to even stop him from moving.
What could be the mechanic to do that?
Will an attack or simply a challenge bring a caravan to a halt? That is a question that needs to be answered. Without a way to bring the caravan to a halt, without attacking, then the SAD won't happen anyway.
Maybe the solution is killing the oxen / horses... Oh no! PETA will put an infinite bounty on my head.
Well the bandits could always block the roadway, that would force the caravan to halt.
What about having the SAD command trigger a pop up box that shows the caravans relative power compared to the bandits relative power? Similar to /con in EQ, so the caravan will know how much of a chance they stand in winning a fight with the bandits? This could be a way to intimidate the caravan into just paying for passage by proving they would lose in a battle.
I doubt GW would give us flags if the PETA people met with untimely accidents? :p
PETA would have a very very hard time in Golaron, people really like waring leather and not starving. Not even Druids would support that (sorry I don't like them).
Your idea with the pop up box, sounds good, but I think the bandits might not like it, after all, they could bluff about number of bandits hidden in the foliage. Of course once all participants are visible (which could very well be a requirement for the pop up) it could work (of course bandit leaders might get a bonus with a successful Bluff check).
You could just set the “tax” at 10 % of the value of the cargo.
My problem with a system like this is the following, once you have given the bandits compensation for not attacking you... what is stopping them from, you know attacking and looting you? After all once you have payed them, they know that you have money. And they seem to view you as dangerous enough, that they are willing to pay you to avoid the fight.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My problem with a system like this is the following, once you have given the bandits compensation for not attacking you... what is stopping them from, you know attacking and looting you? After all once you have payed them, they know that you have money. And they seem to view you as dangerous enough, that they are willing to pay you to...
Two things will stop them...maybe three...
1. They will receive all of the penalties that go with both muder and theft. The Devs specifically said that if a SAD is accepted, there would be no consequences to alignment or criminal flagging.
2. If the bandits did this even a couple of times, they would not be granted the option of a SAD in the future. Word will get out and everyone would ether flee or fight.
3. Other bandit companies, mine included, may take a contract to "send a message" that not living up to a SAD hurts us all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My problem with a system like this is the following, once you have given the bandits compensation for not attacking you... what is stopping them from, you know attacking and looting you? After all once you have payed them, they know that you have money. And they seem to view you as dangerous enough, that they are willing to pay you to...Two things will stop them...maybe three...
1. They will receive all of the penalties that go with both murder and theft. The Devs specifically said that if a SAD is accepted, there would be no consequences to alignment or criminal flagging.
2. If the bandits did this even a couple of times, they would not be granted the option of a SAD in the future. Word will get out and everyone would ether flee or fight.
3. Other bandit companies, mine included, may take a contract to "send a message" that not living up to a SAD hurts us all.
So, what do you think, should players learn the names of the bandits and/or their companies, if they accept a SAD? After all, they might call themselves the “brown bandits” when they are really the “gray bandits”.
I get it, bandits have the job to make traders bleed a little, so they should get their chance.
Regarding point 3, I wonder what kind of companies would be willing to pay you for this. Well at least openly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Would need to know a lot more about travel, movement, etc to even guess how this might work.
In eve all travel from one system (hex) to the next was done via predermined jump gates.
You would set up ambushes at these points with ships that could prevent your targets from escaping and demand they give money or die.
If PFO uses a similar system you would do the same thing, set up at the hex crossings, use some form of movement impairment and enough bodies to convince your target to fork over some cash or loot.
If pfo actually allows people to wander freely and cross from hex to hex at any point along the border that becomes far more difficult.
In either case, I would expect after a short time the SoD option to be rendered worthless as some bandits won't honor it and as soon as word spreads that surrendering means you die anyways people will just fight to the death, which is whats happened in Eve.
In fact, the bandit might find themselves having to pay the merchant a fee when the reply is "I'm rich, kill me and you will have a bounty on your head til the day you quit playing PFO"
Interesting meaningful player interaction there :-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Regarding point 3, I wonder what kind of companies would be willing to pay you for this. Well at least openly.
We are known as The "UnNamed" Company for precisely this purpose.
We don't take contracts out in the open. We don't advertise contracts we currently have, or ones we have completed. Our employer's anonymity is the cornerstone of our contracts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In either case, I would expect after a short time the SoD option to be rendered worthless as some bandits won't honor it and as soon as word spreads that surrendering means you die anyways people will just fight to the death, which is whats happened in Eve.
This seems the most logical development.
Perhaps most of the posters here will indeed play honorable bandits of the "Robin Hood" archetype but it seems quite likely that in-game most bandits will think "If I play my cards right I can BOTH exploit protection money and THEN kill and loot him for even more treasures".
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Goblin Squad Member
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In fact, the bandit might find themselves having to pay the merchant a fee when the reply is "I'm rich, kill me and you will have a bounty on your head til the day you quit playing PFO"
Interesting meaningful player interaction there :-)
This generally does not happen, and almost never in EVE anymore...
Ever since the Crimewatch debacle. with its silly flag system, I have been able to steal from miners in Hi Sec space without fear of retaliation.
They don't even sick their drones at me... They figure, "if I fight back, I have to stop mining and I could lose my ship." They just let me take the few scraps I get and continue mining.
A never ending bounty will beget a never ending disruption of his supply lines. He will always have to hire more guards, than anyone else. He will always have to wonder, if a friend of mine is not collecting his bounty and splitting it with me.
Merchants are simple to understand... Time is money; money is their adventure.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Would need to know a lot more about travel, movement, etc to even guess how this might work.
In eve all travel from one system (hex) to the next was done via predermined jump gates.
You would set up ambushes at these points with ships that could prevent your targets from escaping and demand they give money or die.
If PFO uses a similar system you would do the same thing, set up at the hex crossings, use some form of movement impairment and enough bodies to convince your target to fork over some cash or loot.
If pfo actually allows people to wander freely and cross from hex to hex at any point along the border that becomes far more difficult.
In either case, I would expect after a short time the SoD option to be rendered worthless as some bandits won't honor it and as soon as word spreads that surrendering means you die anyways people will just fight to the death, which is whats happened in Eve.
In fact, the bandit might find themselves having to pay the merchant a fee when the reply is "I'm rich, kill me and you will have a bounty on your head til the day you quit playing PFO"
Interesting meaningful player interaction there :-)
I believe from interpretation of ryan's comments etc... They intend to lessen the bottlenecks of jump gates etc... Though fast travel could still have some similar traits to jump gates. Bandits themselves if they have gotten access to a hideout, can see people traveling within X radius of their hideout, and drop people out of fast travel if they intersect.
In other words, the bandits don't need to attack at the exact spot you are passing, the level of the hideout could give them a much larger radius. Though of course the travelers could start reverse engeneering the attack points, and know where to search for and destroy this hideout.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I beleive the difference is that the Bounty system in Eve is a complete joke, whereas the one in PFO is intended to be a realistic deterent.
Obviously we don't atm have enough information to really form a positive conclusion as to its effectiveness.
Personally I think its a good idea.
If you want your character to be the PFO version of Hitler, Saddam, Jack the Ripper, Son of Sam, Bonny & Clyde, Jesse James, or the local gang banger with 12 bodies to your name you should expect to spend your life looking over your shoulder, with your name and picture tacked up in every Tavern on a wanted poster knowing that every time you walk into town someone might recognize you...
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you want your name and picture tacked up in every Tavern on a wanted poster knowing that every time you walk into town someone might recognize you...
Please don't tempt me, I'm just $200 away from getting that if I want it!
If that survey takes another month or more to get to us, I might just go with Hellknights' Most Wanted, instead of the Epic Brew Master I already pledged.