Wondering about the Staff Magus

[Ventnor]

So, it's pretty much known that the most optimal build for the Magus is the Dervish Dancing Scimitar build.

One particular Magus archetype has caught my eye lately; the staff Magus. Obviously, they use a more suboptimal weapon. But is there anyone whose played one? And what was the experience like?

[Kazejin]

Well, I can tell you right now that you'll be behind on DPR (damage per round) output due to lack of crit-potential in the staff. If you have a Fighter in your group, provided he's at all optimized, you can expect to be eating his dust the vast majority of the game.

Here's a rant on the things that concern me about using a Staff Magus in melee:

Spoiler:

Another problematic issue is the fact that the Staff Magus doesn't gain the ability to cast spells in medium or heavy armor. You get to apply your staff's enhancement to your AC (as a shield bonus), but being MAD will likely lead to a lower dex score, which doesn't work all that well with light armor builds.

Not to mention, your staff's AC bonus is a shield bonus of all things so it doesn't stack with the Shield spell, and costs twice as much as a regular shield enhancement would cost (because magic weapons cost double what magic armor costs). Though, it does include the swift-action enchantment ability that a Magus comes with, so maybe it's better than casting Shield. Still though, the staff isn't finesse-able, so you'd have to be a STR build to actually fight with it, going back to the "low dex, but stuck in light armor" issue. Well, unless you use dice rolled stats and get a lot of good rolls, I suppose.

It's a neat archetype in terms of flavor, but I'm not so sure how it holds up in practice, if you plan to be in melee.

Now, if you didn't plan on staying in melee... that might be a different beast altogether. I've recently started theorycrafting an idea for creating a Save-or-Lose Magus with the Staff and Hexcrafter archetypes together. Since it wouldn't be melee-focused, I could get away with lower STR, to keep the DEX higher (and thus improve the AC). Though, I still can't really name anything about the idea that would make it better with the staff than without so... But yeah, if you do try a Staff magus in either strategy, let me know how that works out.

[Thaliak]

I played a Staff Magus that focused on combat maneuvers. While I might have been able to gain a higher AC by playing a scimitar-wielding Dervish Dancer and focusing on dexterity rather than strength, I would have needed to spend three feats-Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dance, and Agile Maneuvers-to gain any benefit. Since combat maneuvers are feat-intensive, that would have forced me to specialize in one maneuver rather than two or drop some of the metamagic feats that allowed me to deal great burst damage. If we'd started at a lower level, it would have also made me wait longer before realizing my character concept.

As a dervish dancer, I would have had trouble imaging the character in combat. It's easy for me to picture someone using a staff to trip foes or keep them at a distance while creating havoc with magic-fueled dirty tricks. I would have a much harder time picturing a scimitar wielder doing so.

I had fun giving my allies opportunity attacks or locking down melee foes by casting Enlarge Person and tripping foes. With True Strike, I could trip enemies that should have been far beyond my reach. When that didn't work or I wanted to do something different, I was still a Magus. I could disable the Big Bad with an intensified, maximized shocking grasp or waste his mooks with Chain Lightning. If we encountered a dragon or another spellcaster I couldn't one shot, I could keep them from casting with Lingering Pain. And if we needed to cross a chasm, sneak past a guard, or trick someone with an illusion, Fly, Invisibility, and the image spells were only a Spell Recall away.

My experience might have been different if the DM hadn't given us high stats and powerful loot, or if I'd played with people that knew how to optimize. However, if you like the character concept, you should be able to create a viable character with the Staff Magus.

[Kazejin]

Thaliak wrote:

I would have needed to spend three feats-Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dance, and Agile Maneuvers-to gain any benefit.

You don't need Agile Maneuvers if you're only performing combat maneuvers that involve using your scimitar (such as trip and disarm).

Since the blog update they made ages back, any feats related to the weapon you're using apply to CMB checks with that weapon. Not to mention, a combat maneuver is still considered an attack roll. Weapon Finesse (and Dervish Dance) allow you to use your DEX for all attack rolls with your weapon.

Agile Maneuvers is for combat maneuvers that don't normally allow you to use a weapon to assist the attempt (such as grappling).

[Cheapy]

Yay for more recommendations of the Same. Exact. Build. An indisputable indication that something is wrong.

[Stome]

Yes next lets go complain at any thread that suggest a THF barb/fighter with power attack.

As for the archetype... Sadly it was not well thought out at all. They needed to give it something more in exchange for the worthless crit rate and didn't

[Stome]

Just came to me what could help this archetype some. Still won't keep up do to lack of crit range but it would help. Adding Shillelagh to their spell list or as a arcana. Or heck a permanent effect is held by said magus.

Though I suppose that's more for the house rule area. Still allowing a magus to add it to their spells through independent study is still legit.