This came up recently, the PFS Guide states:
Clerics, inquisitors, paladins, cavaliers of the order of the star, and samurai of the order of the star must choose a deity as all classes in Golarion that receive spells and abilities from a specific divine source receive their powers from a deity. Druids, oracles, and rangers are the exception to this rule.
That is presented as being justified based on the rules of Golarion: "as all classes in Golarion that receive spells and abilities from a specific divine source receive their powers from a deity".
But AFAIK, in the Canon rules of Golarion, ONLY Clerics, Inquisitors, and Order of the Star Cavaliers/Samurai are subject to the Deity requirement*... Paladins are not. Paladins are not presented as receiving their abilities from 'a specific divine source/deity' either in the Core Rules or Golarion (excepting the Sacred Servant Archetype, which would be subject to same Deity requirement as Clerics). In other words, Paladins are more equivalent to Rangers in this area."Although inquisitors are dedicated to a deity, they are above many of the normal rules... They answer to their deity and their own sense of justice... Like a cleric's deity, an inquisitor's deity influences her alignment, what magic she can perform... Ex-Inquisitors: An inquisitor who slips into corruption or changes to a prohibited alignment [Deity-based] loses all spells and the judgment ability")
"Order of the Star ...When a cavalier joins this order, he should select a single religion to serve."
Paizo's Golarion setting editors have weighed in on this subject already:
Rangers, oracles, etc. don't need to have faith in a specific god. That's only for clerics.
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In the SETTING, we say that clerics have to worship gods or other divine beings to get their powers.*Non-cleric divine casters do NOT need to worship a god, or any divine being. Their magic comes through faith, ideas, personal belief and understanding--whether it's a veneration of nature, a belief in mysteries they don't understand, faith in themselves and their own mystical abilities, etc...
...But long story short: only clerics are barred from being atheists in setting canon.
Those statements went as far as saying that ATHEISM is OK for many of these 'divine' classes, including Paladins, which is distinct from simply not worshipping (and have class powers derived from) one specific Deity... (James Sutter also wrote that Atheist Inquisitors are OK, which seems to conflict with the class rules themselves re: Deities, but that is not the PFS rule I am contesting)
So in the standard game set in Golarion, Paladins aren't in any way connected to a specific Deity, and don't need to worship one (or any). PFS can of course institute it's own specific rules, but since the reasoning for this rule is 'because that's how it works in Golarion', there seems to be a significant mis-match happening here...???
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In this case Mike has made a campaign specific ruling that Paladins must choose a deity.What's funny about this is that it then puts the player in a bit of a conundrum regarding the Paladin Codes presented in Faiths of Purity / Faiths of Balance, which are technically not PFS legal.
Are you saying they aren't legal because they're not called out in Additional Resources as being legal? I'd say Additional Resources only applies to crunch, not fluff, so that doesn't apply. Fluff should always be legal.
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Are you saying they aren't legal because they're not called out in Additional Resources as being legal? I'd say Additional Resources only applies to crunch, not fluff, so that doesn't apply. Fluff should always be legal.In this case Mike has made a campaign specific ruling that Paladins must choose a deity.What's funny about this is that it then puts the player in a bit of a conundrum regarding the Paladin Codes presented in Faiths of Purity / Faiths of Balance, which are technically not PFS legal.
What defines fluff, then? Is a paladin's Code of Conduct not crunch?
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What defines fluff, then? Is a paladin's Code of Conduct not crunch?Are you saying they aren't legal because they're not called out in Additional Resources as being legal? I'd say Additional Resources only applies to crunch, not fluff, so that doesn't apply. Fluff should always be legal.In this case Mike has made a campaign specific ruling that Paladins must choose a deity.What's funny about this is that it then puts the player in a bit of a conundrum regarding the Paladin Codes presented in Faiths of Purity / Faiths of Balance, which are technically not PFS legal.
There are no numeric bonuses or penalties to any die rolls, no changes to class abilities, nothing that affects what the paladin can do with their actions in combat. There aren't even any hard rules as to how far the paladin can break their code before requiring an atonement.
I'd say that means there's no crunch, just fluff. Crunch = roll playing, Fluff = role playing
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What defines fluff, then? Is a paladin's Code of Conduct not crunch?Are you saying they aren't legal because they're not called out in Additional Resources as being legal? I'd say Additional Resources only applies to crunch, not fluff, so that doesn't apply. Fluff should always be legal.In this case Mike has made a campaign specific ruling that Paladins must choose a deity.What's funny about this is that it then puts the player in a bit of a conundrum regarding the Paladin Codes presented in Faiths of Purity / Faiths of Balance, which are technically not PFS legal.
Its been a while since I read the code of conduct pages, but are they not also put forth as a guideline - IE the individual codes of certain Pallys can differ from the code given, depending on their personal role in the hierarchy.
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To the OP: as noted above, this was a recent PFS campaign ruling. Before it used to work that Paladins were not required as per the Golarion setting
On codes: please do note that Faiths of purity/balance are NOT part of the core assumption. I may have a Paladin of Torag, but don't own the Faiths of Purity book. I should be expected to follow the paladin code as explained in the CRB and not the one in the Faiths book.
Not all players are studied experts on golarion lore.
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I am so confused. Please help me understand how so many people just want to push the rules? Is it really that constricting to have LG NG and LN Gods as patrons for Paladins?
It isn’t difficult.
The main thing that most of the complaints I’ve seen to date revolve around, is folks who want to say, “I’m a paladin of goodness who reveres Pharasma/Nethys/some other God 2 steps or more away from LG”.
You have James Jacobs talking about this exact thing (and yes, I know James Jacobs is not a rules guy, but he is a setting guy, and a guy who’s really good at making rulings on what amounts to fluff in many cases.) He has essentially said (I’m paraphrasing) that a Paladin is LG, and based on their code will do everything in their power to be LG and uphold in the world around him LG things. That there can become somewhat of a conflict between anyone who is LG and worshiping a LN or NG deity. That a Paladin of Abadar or Sarenrae wouldn’t have much conflict as those two deities tend to be rather lenient on the things a Paladin would not want to adhere to in their dogma. Irori and Shelyn a little bit more difficult, but not undoable. But that a LG Paladin who says they worship a deity 2 steps or more removed are not roleplaying LG correctly and would be failing their paladin code every day.
So to essentially bring things back in line with the fact a Paladin is a force for goodness, PFS had to enforce that by creating a restriction that Paladins needed to choose a deity. Because to be a Paladin of Nethys or Pharasma, you are not really being LG which is a requirement for being a Paladin.
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I'm curious about this. If they're not PFS legal then you should treat them as though they don't exist at all. How would they put "the player in a bit of a conundrum."In this case Mike has made a campaign specific ruling that Paladins must choose a deity.What's funny about this is that it then puts the player in a bit of a conundrum regarding the Paladin Codes presented in Faiths of Purity / Faiths of Balance, which are technically not PFS legal.
The conundrum being that there is a change to the class as written in the CRB that doesn't make a ton of sense, but then material that would support that change is specifically excluded from an otherwise legal source. Why would you force someone to choose a deity, but not include specific material (if available to the player) that would allow them greater flexibility in their play experience?
In this case Mike has made a campaign specific ruling that Paladins must choose a deity.
OK, if that is what he wants to do for Paladins in PFS, no problem whatsoever.
What I wrote in my original post is that the *stated rationale* for it is NOT a PFS-specific ruling, but relying on standard Golarion lore. The Deity-requirement for Paladins (non-standard Golarion) is lumped in with the requirement for Clerics/Inquisitors/etc (standard Golarion) as all being 'how it is done in Golarion'... When that's *just not true* for Paladins in Golarion. I don't know if it was a mistake in including Paladins in the requirement, a mistake in justifying Deity-linked Paladins as Golarion-standard along with the other classes, or what. That's what I'm trying to clear up.
I agree that if they want to go in a non-Golarion-standard Deity-worshipping Paladin direction, it's strange not to use the Deity-specific Paladin material, but perhaps it was judged unbalanced or just too much work for GMs to track those separate details.
I heard Inquisitors are not forced to worship a deity in Golarion, actually.
Yeah, that is another discrepancy, although it's a bit strange to me why Inquisitors can be God-less but Clerics can't (in normal Golarion rules), when the equivalent rules text is exactly the same for them, Inquisitors seem to be heretical, independent Clerics with a combat/skill focus. In any case, I hope there is clarification of intent/ the guide's explanatory text.
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Yeah, that is another discrepancy, although it's a bit strange to me why Inquisitors can be God-less but Clerics can't (in normal Golarion rules), when the equivalent rules text is exactly the same for them, Inquisitors seem to be heretical, independent Clerics with a combat/skill focus. In any case, I hope there is clarification of intent/ the guide's explanatory text.
The requirement for Paladins and inquisitors is absolutely deliberate. there was extensive discussion on these boards (and I'm told also in the VO secret boards) about the topic. The clarification was finally made and put in the 4.3 guide a few weeks ago.
I for one (and I have a lvl 13 paladin in PFS) think it's for the best of the campaign.
As for the Deity-specific Paladin material, like I explained above, I personally do NOT own Faiths of Purity. You can't expect me to play my Pladin (of Iomedae) adhering to codes and standard of a book I don't even own, you know?
I'm still curious as to why this change was necessary. Has any light been shed on that?
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I'm still curious as to why this change was necessary. Has any light been shed on that?
Choosing a Deity to worship has mechanical benefits (access to traits, feats, & spells) and may have an impact on a scenario (see Lissala worship in many Season 4 scenarios). Additionally, you carry a holy symbol of that deity with you if you are a worshiper, and often will display it boldly, especially if a Paladin.
Some folks were abusing the right for a Paladin to not choose a deity, by choosing only to “venerate” a deity 2 or more steps away from LG, while being a Paladin of Goodness and Lawfulness.
James Jacobs has made it abundantly clear that this is not ok. When it comes to Golarion stuff and roleplay stuff, I listen to him quite strongly (as opposed to rule clarifications). For a Paladin to even “venerate” a deity 2 or more steps away, they would need an atonement every day.
So it was necessary to bring the Paladin back in line with what it was meant to be, and with deity choices that make sense for a Paladin to even want to choose based on their Paladin code.
For example, lets say there is a scenario based around dealing with Hellknights, a Paladin of “Asmodeus” would find it quite easy to get along with them as opposed to a typical Paladin of Sarenrae or Shelyn or Torag.
Thanks Andrew!
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Choosing a Deity to worship has mechanical benefits (access to traits, feats, & spells)Do you gain the ability to use the favored weapon of a Deity with out spending a feat?
Edit: Like Calistria's is a whip, if I worship her do I gain the ability to use whips?
Clerics automatically have proficiency with their deity's favored weapon, but I don't think any other class gains that mechanical benefit.
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Choosing a Deity to worship has mechanical benefits (access to traits, feats, & spells)Do you gain the ability to use the favored weapon of a Deity with out spending a feat?
Edit: Like Calistria's is a whip, if I worship her do I gain the ability to use whips?
As noted, clerics and inquisitors do. There may be archetypes of other classes that do.
But there are feats, spells, and traits that you can't take unless you worship a specific deity.
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Clerics automatically have proficiency with their deity's favored weapon, but I don't think any other class gains that mechanical benefit.Inquisitors do as well. So clerics and inquisitors only can get weapon prof.
One exception: Inquisitors of Irori do not gain IUS, unlike their clerical counterparts, as they are not specifically called out in the current Guide.
Edit: Unless there's been a clarification that I haven't seen.
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Yeah, that is another discrepancy, although it's a bit strange to me why Inquisitors can be God-less but Clerics can't (in normal Golarion rules), when the equivalent rules text is exactly the same for them, Inquisitors seem to be heretical, independent Clerics with a combat/skill focus. In any case, I hope there is clarification of intent/ the guide's explanatory text.The requirement for Paladins and inquisitors is absolutely deliberate. there was extensive discussion on these boards (and I'm told also in the VO secret boards) about the topic. The clarification was finally made and put in the 4.3 guide a few weeks ago.
I for one (and I have a lvl 13 paladin in PFS) think it's for the best of the campaign.
As for the Deity-specific Paladin material, like I explained above, I personally do NOT own Faiths of Purity. You can't expect me to play my Pladin (of Iomedae) adhering to codes and standard of a book I don't even own, you know?
In thinking on this more, I'm realizing that my concern is unfounded. The deity codes are not mechanical in nature other than adding additional requirements to the existing code and, as such, can be addressed in the character's personality rather than having table legal implications.
The requirement for Paladins and inquisitors is absolutely deliberate. there was extensive discussion on these boards (and I'm told also in the VO secret boards) about the topic. The clarification was finally made and put in the 4.3 guide a few weeks ago.
I for one (and I have a lvl 13 paladin in PFS) think it's for the best of the campaign.
I can guarantee it was not a mistake to include Paladins in requiring a deity. That was a conscious choice.
The fact that it doesn't marry up exactly with Golarion lore not-withstanding.
The ruling is what it is. Please accept it.
I'm not not accepting it. I'm not arguing it shouldn't be.
I'm just saying that the rationale stated in the guide itself doesn't hold up at all for Paladins (and Inquisitors).If you're sure the outcome of the rule is intended, and that's the case, great.
I just didn't automatically assume it was intended when I read the sentence that conflicted with the actual state of Golarion, because I'm not the PFS director, and so I can't KNOW where the problem actually lies.
It's just that it's confusing and misleading to be claiming something with Golarion as the justification, when Golarion isn't that way.
If the problem is the wording of the rationale (re: Paladins/Inquisitors), great, that can be easily fixed.
To me, paladins and inquisitors should be required to have deity. Every example I've read in setting fiction, or seen printed in a book, has them gaining their powers from a deity.
As for the idea that they gain spells from "faith, ideas, personal belief and understanding", I say boo! Paladins aren't sorcerers or oracles.