Whats more important at 10th level? AC or Saving Throws?

[Lord Tsarkon]

Been playing since 1995 (2nd edition) with an extended break when 3.0 came out (sort of ruined it for me but Pathfinder brought me back)..

So while I'm not exactly a novice player I'm not one of those optimized character makers.

We are now 10th level starting the 4th book in the Jade Regent and our latest Tank (Dwarven Fighter) is now retiring (player was getting bored with the character) so we have no tank now in our party.

Party now consists of:

Cleric with Bow feats and 10 CON
Rogue (no info)
Bard
Gnome Druid w/Fire Domain with 10 STR and usually spell slinging.

My Gnome Druid does have an 18 COn but Armor is so so (AC 22)

I'm not usually doing tank roles but I have the opportunity to either purchase a +3 Cloak of Resistance or improve my armor (shield and leaf armor are +1 currently)..

But at level 10 it seems the monsters hit you no matter what.. but saving throws are whats really important..

So should I just spend all my money on this cloak or get a little better AC?

[notabot]

Saves.

AC prevents you from getting hit and losing HP. You can also avoid being hit through tactical play, and HP can be healed.

When you fail a save it could mean a dead party member, either you, or a friendly should you get dominated/confused.

[Nicos]

You can land hits with halfs your hit points, you will be useless if paralized/dazed/stuned.

[Feral]

If you're playing an AP, I'd say focus on getting AC. As a druid your saves will be fine but paizo APs love to through lots of facebeaters into their encounters and you're going to need a decent AC to survive being up front.

[W. John Hare]

I would say it depends on how you plan to tank.
Are you looking to be up front and block for the others and/or provide a flanking partner for the rogue? Or are you looking to control the battlefield so the others don't get stomped?

AC is easier to buff than saves I've found... so I would probably go with the Cloak, and then 'tank' using battlefield control with Summon Nature's Ally spells to clog up your enemies.

If you really need to get your face in the way, then you will need to buff yourself, and possibly have the cleric help. Barkskin, Stoneskin and Magic Vestment (gives an extra +1 to shield/armor for 10hrs, assuming the cleric is level 10).

If you want them to hit you (ie using Fire Shield or Thorn Body), then again go with the Cloak for saves.

Lastly, cast Awaken on some sort of tree. Cast Charm Plant. You now have a 'friend' who should hopefully help protect you... hopefully you aren't trying to cross over the top of the world at that point... :)

The Summon Nature's Ally & the Awakened Plant, should hopefully allow you to control the battlefield, and thus prevent your other party members for eating damage.

[Lord Tsarkon]

Everyone in the party is level 10... and the Bard is a dueliest Arcanist Bard supposedly. (we have new players)

My Druid has the Augment Summoning Feat... I tend to usually fly (Air elemental) and control battlefield tactics, summons, or toss a Fireball or Flame Strike during combat. We just finished the Over the Crown of the World Jade Regent so we have been in freezing weather for months and the Fireballs have been helpful, but now since people are changing their characters around we have no tank anymore.. and I honestly do not want the role but if I just keep flying the rest of the party will not survive well.

The DM has said that the next book has lots of town stuff and roleplaying, which is a nice break from want was constant fighting in the last adventure. But with all our spoils we have money to spend and now is the time to figure out how to improve our gear.

Everything I have is +1...

Ring of Protection +1
Leaf Armor +1
Darkwood Buckler+1
Pearl of Power+1
Cloak of Resistance+1 (DM has told me a Cloak of Resistance+3 is available in the next town when we arrive there... its 16k however)
Amulet of Natural Armor+1

I also have a Cube of Frost Resistance (considered Party treasure)
Gem of Brightness, Handy Haversack, Druid's vestment, Ring of Sustenance, Staff of Journeys, and I also have scribe scroll feat and a Amulet of Mighty Fist that I barely use.. and about 13k of money I just aquired.

Edit: Seems I have 2 Amulets of Natural Armor+1s... I think a fallen comrade used to have one.

Thanks for everyone's advice so far

[Adamantine Dragon]

Summon animals to tank and put your money into items that let you cast more spells.

[Feral]

Sell the amulet. You don't need it as a druid. Invest in a rod of lesser extend and focus on keeping barkskin up on yourself. It grants +4 (as opposed to the +1 from the amulet).

[Wasum]

Heavy armor prof + wild enchantment.

10 + 10 Armor + 1 Ring + 4 Barkskin + X Dex + Y Wildshape should give you something around 30-35 at level 10 and is therefor pretty good. Without the armor you can still be at 25+ by getting a wand of mage armor that the bard UMD's on you.

[Lord Tsarkon]

Wasum wrote:

Heavy armor prof + wild enchantment.

10 + 10 Armor + 1 Ring + 4 Barkskin + X Dex + Y Wildshape should give you something around 30-35 at level 10 and is therefor pretty good. Without the armor you can still be at 25+ by getting a wand of mage armor that the bard UMD's on you.

Well my Gnome's Strength is like 10, and wild enchantment is screwed up in Pathfinder(3.5?) (waaay too expensive) and my UMD is +16 ( I have a wand of magic missiles at 7th level )also that an ex-party member crafted for me.

I do like the Barkskin idea with the extended Rod...

My DM did say that this town has a purchase power up to 6500 gp and 75 percent of medium or lesser magic items (so if I wanted one of those metamagic rods that is 3k then there is a 75 percent chance this town has one for example). There is sort of something happening in the town when we get there.. we can not exactly go shopping right away or something...

I'm trying to wonder what Wild shape forms are good for tanking

Forgot to add that Thorn Body spell looks sweet and I can also summon one of these Anklosaurus Dino Tank. While I can summon Dinosaurs my Dm will not let me wildshape into them. I'm usually a small Air elemental flying above but now I might have to change my tactics, as I have most hitpoints in the party now

[Feral]

I agree Wild is overly expensive but it's still worth it. Consider picking up dragonhide breastplate if nothing else.

At your level you can become a large fire elemental. That'll give you +5 more AC and a small bumb to con for more hitpoints.

[W. John Hare]

Hmm, sounds like you need to have a chat with your fellow players to figure out how this is going to work. (ie just because another player decided to swap his PC doesn't mean you should be penalized or forced into a role you weren't anticipating)

From what you have posted so far, it seems to only reason you would be 'cast' as the tank is because you have an 18 Con and a reasonable AC.

I think the question you need to ask, is does your party actually need a 'tank'. If your battlefield control keeps the other squishies from being turned into paste, then a dedicated 'tank' isn't required.

If you absolutely need something up front to absorb the initial attacks from the bad guys, there are a couple of ways to go.
1) Leadership - get yourself a gronk who has lots of hp and AC
2) Awaken a Plant, Command Plant and you have a 'tree gronk' that you can replace as required.
3) Have the bard convince the 'bad guys' that you 'are't the droids they are looking for'.
4) Go the Hvy Armor route + wild enchantment.
5) Use summoned critters to be the 'front wall' between the bad guys and the squishies.
6) Seperate the bad guys via Wall of Fire/Wall of Thorns and focus fire, hopefully this will mean that the bad guys can't focus fire on your party.

[Atarlost]

I'd have thought wild was expensive until I tried gearing out a 10th level reference build. It's actually the cheapest way to get AC.

A deflection bonus costs 2k*bonus^2. An enhancement to natural armor costs the same and eats the amulet slot that a melee druid needs to use for an amulet of mighty fang to get through DR.

Spoiler:

Enhancements to armor and shield bonuses cost 1k*bonus^2.
A +4 equivelent shield costs 16k and some change. This is a +1 wild heavy shield. It provides +3 AC.
A +4 equivalent armor costs 16k and the price of the armor, which for hide armor is pocket change. This is another +5 AC.
A +3 ring of deflection or amulet of natural armor costs 18k.
Heavier dragon hide or ironwood armor could get even more efficient, but I'm not sure availability is guaranteed.

Also, you're a druid with 18 con and presumably at least as much wisdom. Your important saves are already high. Since you will never deal decent melee damage with 10 strength you may as well shape small unless you're planning to use the air elemental whirlwind form to throw people around. That'll crank up your dex, shoring up your weak save.

Your fort save is 14 and your will save at least as high. The rogue probably has both fort and will in the single digits. The bard may have a double digit will save, but probably has a single digit fort save. The cleric will probably barely hit a double digit fort save if he's the one who gets the +3 cloak.

You already have the best saves in your party. They're probably the last thing you should be investing in at this point.

Between size, dex, and natural armor mods (relative to medium):

Spoiler:

diminutive animal: +8 AC
large air or fire elemental: +5 AC
Any medium elemental: +5 AC
small earth or water elemental: +5 AC
tiny animal: +5 AC
large earth or water elemental: +4 AC
small air or fire elemental: +4 AC
small plant: +3 AC
large plant: +3 AC
small animal: +3 AC
medium plant: +2 AC
medium animal: +2 AC
large animal: +2 AC
huge animal: +2 AC

Nothing you do will make you a melee threat with 10 strength, but you're a spellcaster. Make sure you're recognized as a spellcaster and in reach and enemies should come for you. Bats have 40' fly

The only diminutive animals are thrush, toad, bat, and hedgehog. You won't gain the hedgehog's spiny defense. The toad has a 5' move speed, ruling it out right away. The hedgehog has a 20' move speed, which isn't hopeless. The thrush has a 10' move speed with a 40' fly (average) speed, which is better since you can always fly near the ground. The bat has a 5' move speed with a 40' fly (good) speed and has 20' blindsense.

Bat is probably your best tanking form. Flit around making sure you always end your turn in reach of the battlefield while casting spells with an obvious source, or wildshape in plain sight so the enemy knows the bat is a druid. If enemies tend to not try to go after the low flying druid your next best tanking form is the hedgehog.

[Illeist]

For what it's worth, when you have a +2 Cloak of Protection, it's cheaper to add a Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone than to upgrade to a +3 Cloak of Resistance.

[Wasum]

Because hedgehogs tend to really taunt the enemies?:P

Dim. animals are likely to be ignored because - seriously - a hedgehog?

Id tank as large air elemental.

[stuart haffenden]

Generally speaking it's the saving throws that will kill you as you get into high level play as the conditions will be more servere and last the whole combat, and possibly take you out of combat altogether.

But with your party make up I think AC is worth considering.

If I were you I would continue to fly and cast your offensive spells out of harms reach. Let the non-flying characters deal with the ground stuff. They can spend their cash worrying about AC and surviving. You'll be better use to them summoning stuff to buy them time to kill the monsters off.

[Atarlost]

Wasum wrote:

Because hedgehogs tend to really taunt the enemies?:P

Dim. animals are likely to be ignored because - seriously - a hedgehog?

Id tank as large air elemental.

Are you saying that if an enemy turned into a hedgehog you'd just ignore him? Seriously? Not treat him like you'd treat any other full caster that's a minor melee threat?

Sure, he could be a 13th level wizard with eschew materials casting a still, silent Beast Shape III and therefore harmless while in that form, but he's probably a druid. At least level 8 since there's no hedgehog totem archetype. And since he's shaping as a form with no offense he must be either a complete moron or specialized as a caster.

And then he starts casting spells. Maybe Transmute Rock to Mud. Can you afford to let him get off Transmute Mud to Rock unmolested? Maybe he's casting a full round spell. Is it SNA 5 or is he casting SNA 1 just to troll you?

[Thunderfrog]

A Wild Hedgehog Appears!

Wild Hedgehog uses Summon!

"OMG! That hedgehog is flying around on a bat hurling fireballs! Aaaugh!"

(Are we still playing D&D or did we get switched to BESM when I wasn't looking?)

[Wasum]

The hedgehog will be grapples by any summoned monster, it wont be able to occupie space and its therefore likely to be ignored - because you cant hit it or maybe because some improved familiar already grappled it:P