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The sample Skeletal Champion is a Human Warrior 1 Skeletal Champion with a CR of 2. I'm being told that because there is an NPC class involved the CR should be one lower (1), and that even Paizo does it wrong ... I've argued that the Skeletal Champion CR is based on the Skeleton which is based on Hit Dice and not Class Level.
So I'm trying to get clarification on just what CR that sample Champion should be.
CR: A skeletal champion's CR is +1 higher than a normal skeleton with the same HD.
A skeleton with 3 HD has CR 1 and the skeleton champion has additional +1 CR for a total of 2. Class levels are not involved into the CR calculation directly - they affect CR indirectly by increasing skeleton champion HD.
I wonder what made you bring this up today of all days? I just posted nearly the exact same question yesterday night. I agree this template is a function of hit die not class levels. All classes grant 1hd, no matter if they are pc or npc.
However there is a school of thought where the example creature would be a CR 1, and it is at the center of my confusion. Here's the issue, do you calculate cr based on the base creatures hd, THEN apply the rest of the template (specifically, the 2 racial hd the skeletal champion adds), or do you add the two racial hit die to the base creature then calculate the cr. here's how it looks both ways...
A. Base creature has one HD. Normal skeleton with one hd has a cr of 1/3, see page 250 bestiary 1, add one cr for skeletal champion creature is therefore a cr1. Then continue adjusting the base creature as per the template on page 251.
B. Then there is the way the bestiary seems to do the math... Base creature has one class hd, the skeletal champion template adds 2 racial hd for a total of three hd. A normal skeleton with 3 HD is a cr 1 (250 bestiary), skeletal champion adds one cr to this, for a total of two.
So I'll ask here (and sorry if I am hijacking the thread) do you adjust cr then add the templates hd, or do you add the templates additional hd, then adjust the cr.
My instinct is to go with option b, but even hero lab seems to use option a. I am currently involved with a bug report with them to try to convince them that their program is doing it wrong. They disagree so far and say the Bestiary has it wrong.
Ultimately it's just 1 cr, but still it's annoying to have it be an issue.
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My instinct is to go with option b, but even hero lab seems to use option a. I am currently involved with a bug report with them to try to convince them that their program is doing it wrong. They disagree so far and say the Bestiary has it wrong.
Ultimately it's just 1 cr, but still it's annoying to have it be an issue.
Honestly it's because of a bug report I filed with Lone Wolf and I just want to get some clarification so we can find out who's right and make sure the software is correct.
I am in the middle of an email conversation with one the developers as we speak. He seems to be making the error of confusing cr with HD, as in your first post. I just typed him an e-mail trying to explain the difference, we'll see where it goes.
Well I could not convince the Hero Lab staffer I spoke with that it was applying this template wrong. Everytime I sent an e-mail explaining my option B, he would respond by saying that the base creature is CR 1/3 and you add +2 CR to that to get a CR 1.
Nowhere on the template does it say add 2 CR, it says to add 2 HD, then compare that to a skelton of the same HD.
At any rate I am done arguing with him about it, he insists that the bestiary is wrong, and his logic makes ne sense to me (I wonder if he even read the template, after a I submitted the bug).
In my games I will be adding the 2 racial HD to the creatures exsisting class HD, and then comparing that to the Skelton chart on page 250, and adding 1 CR to that.
...and I will be keeping a lot closer eye on Hero Lab, YIKES!!
Any updates on this issue?
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The sample Skeletal Champion is a Human Warrior 1 Skeletal Champion with a CR of 2. I'm being told that because there is an NPC class involved the CR should be one lower (1), and that even Paizo does it wrong ... I've argued that the Skeletal Champion CR is based on the Skeleton which is based on Hit Dice and not Class Level.
So I'm trying to get clarification on just what CR that sample Champion should be.
Actually, non-heroic class levels (adept, aristocrat, warrior) impact CR by 2 (LVL-2=CR). If your monster or NPC has levels in core/base classes, it's LVL-1=CR; likewise if it/he/she has levels in both. Templates are added on top of that, adjusting CR accordingly (in this case it's +1 for skeletal champion). For example, a bugbear advanced skeletal champion warrior 4/rogue 2 would have CR 9, at least according to my understanding.
A human skeletal champion warrior 2 should be CR 1, while fighter 2 would have the correct CR 2.
Hope this helps! :)
The sample Skeletal Champion is a Human Warrior 1 Skeletal Champion with a CR of 2. I'm being told that because there is an NPC class involved the CR should be one lower (1), and that even Paizo does it wrong ... I've argued that the Skeletal Champion CR is based on the Skeleton which is based on Hit Dice and not Class Level.
So I'm trying to get clarification on just what CR that sample Champion should be.
I may be way out in left field on this, but to me it looks like the method used hinges on the CR table for the Skeleton (B1, 250), and the CR & HD paragraphs for Skeletal Champion (B1, 253).
The Skeleton's CR table ignores class levels and hit die types. It only counts the total number of HD for its CR.
If the Warrior 1 were turned in a basic Skeleton, it would be at a CR of 1/3. But turning it into a Skeletal Champion adds 2 HD, for a total of 3 HD. On the Skeleton's CR table, 2 or 3 HD equals CR 1, then the +1 CR for Skeletal Champion is added, for the published total CR of 2.
Again - unless I'm way off on how that should work.
Yup, no FAQ required--Paizo had it right all along.
CR: A skeletal champion's CR is +1 higher than a normal skeleton with the same HD.
So 1 higher than a 3 HD skeleton. Not 1 higher than an NPC pre-template. Strangely, this means that a Skeletal Champion made from a Fighter1 would have the same CR but be strictly stronger.
@Rogue Eidolon
The reason for requesting the FAQ is to fix a bug in Hero Lab that they won't fix without official word.
And they'll fix it if the FAQ answer is "No FAQ required" I hope, right? Because I imagine that will be the answer, and I don't see Lone Wolf having any ground to stand on for their interpretation having looked at the text.
To be honest, I believe the answer is irrelevant. The skeleton champion CR rules as written are useless, and I've yet to see an interpretation that produces consistently sensible results. For base creatures with more than a handful of HD, the resulting CR's are pure nonsense and the game master should quite rightly discard them and ad-hoc something more appropriate.
Take, for instance, a 10th level Cleric Skeletal Champion. The base creature has a CR of 9. By following the RAW, this gives us either CR 6 or CR 7 (depending on whether we count the template's HD or not). This is pure nonsense; any GM who thinks that a 10th level Cleric with a beneficial template is CR 7 is liable to TPK their party. If technical correctness is that important to you then feel free to keep asking for a FAQ and a change to Hero Lab, but I and everyone else who actually has to use these numbers will keep ignoring these rules because they do not work.
They've told me that merely by the fact that it uses an NPC class it has a minus to CR and that without a statement from Paizo otherwise they will not fix it.
This is simply wrong. That rule only applies to NPC's that do not have racial hit dice or PC class levels:
A creature that possesses class levels, but does not have any racial Hit Dice, is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –1. A creature that only possesses non-player class levels (such as a warrior or adept) is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –2.
Emphases mine.
A skeletal champion has racial hit dice, and the CR rules (by RAW) do not tell you to use the CR of the base creature. The rules entry for the temlpate instead direct you to use a completely different table. As a result, the NPC construction rules are not used for determining the CR of a skeleton champion. This may produce senseless results (as I've already ranted about) but that's the RAW.