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Normally a rogue wouldn't be able to stealth during movement after attacking an enemy because she would be observed. However, if she took a level in Shadowdancer she would get Hide in plain site which states:
A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
Now, the rules for stealth state:
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
and the rules for a 5-foot step state:
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement.
I interpret this to mean that a 5-foot step is a type of movement but not a move action. A stealth check is not an action but is usually done during movement. With hide in plain site a rogue can stealth while being observed. So can a rogue with hide in plain site attack, take a 5-foot step and stealth check and re-hide?
If not, can a rogue make a standard attack, use a move action to move away and make a stealth check, and re-hide if they have hide in plain site?
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This came up in my previous thread here but due to the muddled title it didn't get a lot of traffic.
Edit: Fixed a hyperlink.
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So can a rogue with hide in plain site attack, take a 5-foot step and stealth check and re-hide?In order for it to even have a chance of working, you'd have to have Fast Stealth, because otherwise you're required to move at half speed while Stealthing, and thus couldn't take a 5-foot step.
** spoiler omitted **
I always thought that "It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking"
just meant that once you attack you break stealth and are now observed. An attack, imho, is an action that is clearly defined. For example, if I make a standard attack and then take a move action my attack ended before I took my move action. I guess this begs the question that if I make a full round attack did my attack end prior to taking my 5-foot step. It seems the answer would be no but the rules are kind of vague to me.I will have to think about the Fast Stealth feat. At first glance I interpret that to mean that once you are stealthed you cannot move more than half speed.
So can a rogue with hide in plain site attack, take a 5-foot step and stealth check and re-hide?In order for it to even have a chance of working, you'd have to have Fast Stealth, because otherwise you're required to move at half speed while Stealthing, and thus couldn't take a 5-foot step.
** spoiler omitted **
I'm pretty sure you can still take a 5-foot step while Stealthing, without needing anything extra.
These seem to be the only restrictions on when you can take a 5-foot step:
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.
So even having your speed reduced to half shouldn't affect your ability to take a 5-foot step.
Either way, Stealth doesn't actually reduce your speed -- you just take a penalty if you move more than half your speed.
This makes sense, because all Fast Stealth does is remove the penalty.
Whether or not this requires a Stealth check or not... By the letter, I'd say it probably does, since you're moving, even if it's not very far. But I also think it'd be pretty reasonable to say it's unnecessary, for the same reasons that a 5-foot step does not provoke an Attack of Opportunity due to movement.
EDIT:
@Asphere: Just read a bit more closely about what you're trying to do here. Basically, you're trying to Snipe with a full attack. Since Sniping itself seems to be treated as an exception, I'm pretty sure that you can't do this, even if you had an extra move action.
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I am curious about both situations.
1. Making a full attack from stealth and then making a 5-foot step while making a stealth check.
2. Making a single attack from stealth and then making a move action while making a stealth check.
Sniping seems to only cover ranged attacks though. It doesn't say anything about melee attacks. Also, would the rules for sniping apply to someone with hide in plain site? I thought the idea was that once you fire you give away your position and are now observed but at range so you can stealth but at penalty. If you can hide while observed does this penalty even apply anymore? Could a ranger with hide in plain site, fire from stealth, 5 foot step, and stealth again without penalty? If not then what is the point of hide in plain site while in combat?
I am actually the DM in my group and I trying to decide what I want to do here. My rogue is falling behind the fighter dramatically as far as damage goes and it seems like allowing him to ambush like this would make his damage more dependable (targets would be flat footed most of the time) even if he is doing less than the fighter. Also, there seems to be some balance here because he couldn't do this in a brightly lit room, covered with glitterdust or faerie fire, and the enemy could ready an action and grapple him after he was attacked from stealth.
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Except that having your speed reduced to half does mean that you can't take a 5-foot step; see difficult terrain.
But doesn't that only apply to a character that has successfully passed his stealth check? If you are taking a 5-foot step and then making your check you aren't stealthed yet because you may still fail the check.
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You Stealth during a move, not after.
** spoiler omitted **
So if you stealth while making a move action and then you fail your stealth check your speed is still halved during that move action?
Also, I haven't been convinced yet that I am making weird rules up.
EDIT: Also, this sort of ambush tactic sounds really fun. Cinematically it plays out in my head as every time the enemy turns around to see what hit him the rogue has pivoted around him very fast and attacked again.
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So if you stealth while making a move action and then you fail your stealth check your speed is still halved during that move action?
Failing or succeeding at the stealth check does not affect speed. You choose the speed when you make the check. If you opt to move faster than half-speed, your check is at -5.
So not to detract from the thread lets give the rogue fast stealth. Now what?
I found no rule stating that you could not take a 5-foot step to stealth while moving at half-movement. However, conditions that slow movement such as difficult terrain and blindness state that a 5-foot step cannot be made. As a GM, I would rule that if you can move at full speed, you can attempt to stealth with a 5-foot step. In other words, you must use fast stealth or take the -5 penalty. That is my call. You may decide differently.
I don't see this as being a very effective tactic though. With only 5 feet to move, finding concealment that will break line of sight with your opponent will be a challenge. Also, if you make a full attack and use a 5-foot step for stealth, your opponent will likely be able to figure out you only moved 5 feet - making it pretty easy to figure out where you went. After all, he will see you move out of the square in the direction of the concealment (the rogue doesn't just disappear after all). The opponent would just walk around the concealment. With the concealment no longer acting as concealment, you are revealed and the stealth is lost.
A more effective tactic would be to make a single attack, move away from the opponent (hopefully using acrobatics to avoid the AOO) and block line of sight using concealment, then stealth to a new attack position to set up another strike.
Note that sniping is different in that the sniper is firing a missile weapon from stealth and then trying to hide again at the same location. In this case, he does not use movement to re-stealth.
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The rules for HiPS are pretty clear. You do not have to find concealment to stealth as long as there is dim light nearby. If there are shadows to hide in within 10 feet of the shadowdancer, she can effectively just disappear.
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
I assume that there is a supernatural component to this - after all, later a shadowdancer can summon undead shades to do her bidding.
I dunno what RAW is TBH. or rather how the RAW is interpreted.
If I were to rule on this it would depend.
Are you standing in the middle of a hallway someone spots you and you need to HiPS.
I dont think movement is required, if the shadow is there. You'd like want to move later however. As it would be obvious to attack that square. but not required.
But it seems like you are trying to attack, re-stealth, and attack again (for the purposes of getting sneak attack yes?)
there are easier ways to do this.
But.
Yes I think you would have to move, and yes I think you would have to move more than 5 feet.
You are in combat with someone and has such they are extra wary, and simply being unseen for a moment in an adjacent square isn't going to help you here.
For example, You SA. HiPS while moving 5 feet. Expecting another SA?
What keeps this fellow from 5 foot stepping? OR moving completely?
Depending on the circumstances there could be AoO's involved.
But to expect just to rotate around a stationary enemy while you SA, Hips, SA and using 5 foot steps?
I wouldn't let that pony keep tricking.
Now, can you HiPS in a manner as to disengage from the target to move farther and avoid an AoO...maybe.
I think if you combined, HiPS movement and feint, you could keep this tactic going, but the rolls wouldnt always give you what you want.
Success would also depend on the enemy. So it might work in one fight/situation and not another.
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I dunno what RAW is TBH. or rather how the RAW is interpreted.
If I were to rule on this it would depend.
Are you standing in the middle of a hallway someone spots you and you need to HiPS.
I dont think movement is required, if the shadow is there. You'd like want to move later however. As it would be obvious to attack that square. but not required.
But it seems like you are trying to attack, re-stealth, and attack again (for the purposes of getting sneak attack yes?)
there are easier ways to do this.
But.
Yes I think you would have to move, and yes I think you would have to move more than 5 feet.
You are in combat with someone and has such they are extra wary, and simply being unseen for a moment in an adjacent square isn't going to help you here.For example, You SA. HiPS while moving 5 feet. Expecting another SA?
What keeps this fellow from 5 foot stepping? OR moving completely?
Depending on the circumstances there could be AoO's involved.But to expect just to rotate around a stationary enemy while you SA, Hips, SA and using 5 foot steps?
I wouldn't let that pony keep tricking.
Now, can you HiPS in a manner as to disengage from the target to move farther and avoid an AoO...maybe.
I think if you combined, HiPS movement and feint, you could keep this tactic going, but the rolls wouldnt always give you what you want.
Success would also depend on the enemy. So it might work in one fight/situation and not another.
Yeah the verisimilitude would be a bit silly if the shadowdancer could keep it up indefinitely. However, the rolling element helps to alleviate this - especially with an enemy with high perception. I don't think the Shadowdancer will succeed every time. If they go up against a Stone Giant Necomancer 7 and they are level 8 it would really come down to pure dice rolls.
I've always interpreted sneak attack to mean that they were able to sneak an attack past their defences because of skill - not that the defender wasn't ready for an attack. So a shadowdancer will sneak some attacks past their defences (succeeding on stealth checks) and will be parried or dodge (failing on stealth checks).
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I assume that there is a supernatural component to this - after all, later a shadowdancer can summon undead shades to do her bidding.
According to your understanding, does HiPS actually require the ShadowDancer to find concealment that will break line of sight? If so, exactly what does it do for the SD?
HiPS was not part of the original question, so I did not include it in my answer. I would allow HiPS to be used with a 5-foot step since the opponent cannot follow the stealthy character as easily...and because HiPS is supposed to be better than regular stealth.
For the Shadowdancer and Assassin, Hide in Plain Sight is a Supernatural Ability. I like the idea of the Shadowdancer and Assassin taking a step to the side and fading away like walking behind an invisible curtain. That is how I would run it (if I had a player who had it).
Hide in Plain Sight for the Ranger is an Extraordinary Ability. Unlike the Shadowdancer/Assassin ability, the Ranger uses his favored terrain instead of just shadows and he must be in it instead of within 10 feet. For the Ranger, it is about blending into the environment, even when there doesn't appear to be anything to blend into.
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I like the idea too. It makes combat fun for me and the player. I am forced to use more utility spells if I am playing a caster to diminish the effectiveness of hide in plain site or as a melee or ranged attacker I would have to ready an action (like grapple) if I knew an attack was imminent (because the rogue/shadowdancer already got me a few times) and incapacitate the sneaky bugger.
You can also see if jst wants to take Spring Attack...had a GM pit us against an enemy assassin that would leap out of the shadows...slash the hell outta one of us then run back into a shadow and POOF he's gone lol...this became a pain in the a$$ big time since he had an amazing stealth bonus and also was a few lvls of druid and wildshaped to get around us out of human form...anyways spring attack in that instance is great since thats kinda wat its for...hide in shadow A...jump out and attack...run to shadow B...rinse and repeat
well, HiPS does make you disappear so much as you are hiding.
A daylight spell would ruin that fun.
So would a AoE or two.
Glitterdust, Faerie fire....
Ive also seen this one. Cause fear, then have the half orc with smell fear and blind fighting chop up the invisible foe....
so I dont know how long a single combatant could get away with this rinse and repeat shadow running.
agreed there are many ways to get "spotted" and hurt...if its an NPC i hope the PC's figure something out quick...if a PC wants to do this then please think it out ahead of time so you don't wind up bleeding on the floor...and yes a daylight spell would keep the shadowdancer from using his HiPS but not the assassin...more light wouldn't take out the shadows completely lol
I have also thought of the smell fear thing before...but then again thats if they fail the save and such lol...if its a good CR then it might not work...but then again my GM rolls 1's like crazy for his NPC's lol
well there is also the fact that if they dont save they are running away.... orc has to chase em down to pummel them.... the smell fear is fun, the fear actually made the whole thing go away already.
There are other tactics/feats that would stop that.
A high enough level barbarian for example.
Mass invisibility.
Wall of force. stone. fire.
a few web spells.
really depends on the area youre working with and the enemy involved. Cant say ive seen it successfully used over and over again. but if it's 1 shadow dancer vs. a party it shouldnt be too much to put a stop to it.
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Between your two posts and the way you keep changing the parameters of the question, I am getting confused. But I am going to try to break it all down and explain it as best I can.
The 5-foot step This is a non action. It is listed as such under table 8-2 Actions in combat in the Core Rulebook. "Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don’t take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow."
My interpretation, and the only one I have ever seen applied since 3.0, is that a 5-foot step is not a movement and nothing can be added to it as such. Your best example is drawing a weapon as this follows the same economy of actions as you are trying to pull off with stealth. (Add an extra action to a movement).
The whole point is that it takes time to move and there are a few, distinct actions that the game allows you to do during this time. There is not enough time in a no action action to accomplish these tasks. The 5-foot step is a free bonus, you cannot add a free bonus to the free bonus.
Hide in Plain Sight This skill only does one thing. It only gives you another trigger as to when you can hide. Normally you need cover, concealment or a distraction. Now you can also use Dim Light, or 10' from it, as a new trigger. It has nothing at all to do with movement and stealth. It has nothing to do with giving your character more actions.
Pass or Fail Ratios These have nothing to do with how the rules work. The necromancer in your example is of no consequence.
Attacking and Stealth This is the same if you have HiPS or not. You cannot attack and hide at the same time. Basically all this means is that you need a trigger to perform the hide. Again, it could be a distraction, cover, concealment or with HiPS it can be Dim Light.
Also, if you full attack from stealth, only the first attack gets the benefit of being from stealth. The following attacks do not get sneak attack. (Search for invisibility to see examples abound).
Snipping The Snipping rules would not change at all due to HiPS. The only change would be that the sniper could do it near dim light rather than having to hide behind something. As such, my logic question from the other thread still stands. There is no reason to believe that you would be able to do more and hide better in Melee.
Change in Parameters As originally presented, you asked if you could full attack, 5-foot step and hide. That answer is no. The full attack means you cannot make a move action or move equivalent action in the same round. That move action or move equivalent action is required to stealth. As stated, HiPS doesn't change this, it just gives you another trigger.
Your new presentation states one attack, 5-foot step and hide. This would be allowed. You would be making a standard action, a 5-foot step and then a move equivalent action to stealth. There is nothing wrong with this as long as you have a trigger to stealth. You do not get to stealth because of the 5-foot step but rather because you still have a move equivalent action left in the round.
Dim Light Remember, this is based on the viewer, not the person stealthing.
Opposed Rolls You do not 'pass' stealth checks. They set the DC of perception of your enemies. As such, when stealthing you have no idea if you pass or fail unless the enemy reacts. If you don't want a -5 you must go slower or have another skill to counter it. Going slower would not be dropped just because the roll is not high enough for your liking.
Conclusion None of the parts of this post are reliant upon the others. Each part is treated the same no matter how it is applied to other parts. While HiPS is really cool, it doesn't change any stealth rule, it only adds one new trigger.
A word of advice: break down each part completely alone and see what it does. It almost never does anything more when added with other rules, even if they make each other better, each still only does what it did before.
Good luck and happy gaming.
you can completely by rules make a 5 ft step when you full attack...you can even take it between your attacks during a full attack if you want...other than that you points i agree with
Yes to the ability to make a full attack and 5-foot step, but you can't make a full attack, 5-foot step and stealth.
i agreed with that point wholeheartedly bro...jst clarifying that part of the rule you stated so no one who was less knowledgeable would be confused :) (this is y i ALWAYS mention Spring Attack...since you move after the attack it counts XD)
From your other thread, I know that the real question is, "If I have Hide in Plain Site, can I attack someone, then remain within 5' and use stealth to hide from them during the same round?" I read the entirety of both threads and studied the rules for Stealth & Hide in Plain Sight. The best RAW answer I can come up with is, "No, you can't do that."
My reasoning:
- Stealth explicitly states that it may not be used while attacking.
"It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking. . ." - Pathfinder has a rule that governs attacking from stealth and remaining hidden. They call it "sniping" and it may only be used with ranged combat.
"If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location." - If you could attack/hide/attack in melee, one of three situations would exist:
1. There would be a rule or rules covering it.
2. The sniping rule wouldn't exist as an exception to the statement "It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking."
3. The sniping rule would cover it.
As a GM, I would allow a character with Hide in Plain Sight to snipe with melee combat. I'd probably impose an additional -10 for being within 5'.
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Between your two posts and the way you keep changing the parameters of the question, I am getting confused. But I am going to try to break it all down and explain it as best I can.
I have pretty much been asking two separate questions in both threads. I even presented them as a numerated list in one of my posts. In case it wasn't clear: Can you
1. Full round action and 5 foot stealth
2. Standard action move stealth
The 5-foot step This is a non action. It is listed as such under table 8-2 Actions in combat in the Core Rulebook. "Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don’t take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow."
Okay.
My interpretation, and the only one I have ever seen applied since 3.0, is that a 5-foot step is not a movement and nothing can be added to it as such. Your best example is drawing a weapon as this follows the same economy of actions as you are trying to pull off with stealth. (Add an extra action to a movement).
This is where things get fuzzy for me. Drawing a weapon is a clearly defined action. It is listed on table 8-2 as a move action. A stealth check is not assigned an action type. On page 107 of the CRB it says that Stealth is usually not an action and that it is normally made as part of a movement. It doesn't require it to be made as part of a movement. The reason it is usually made as part of a movement is because the stealther is attempting to break line of sight so that he can meet the criteria that stealth requires. You keep using the phrase "add an extra action to a movement" but this isn't what is happening.
The whole point is that it takes time to move and there are a few, distinct actions that the game allows you to do during this time. There is not enough time in a no action action to accomplish these tasks. The 5-foot step is a free bonus, you cannot add a free bonus to the free bonus.
Again movement is not required to attempt a stealth check.
Hide in Plain Sight This skill only does one thing. It only gives you another trigger as to when you can hide. Normally you need cover, concealment or a distraction. Now you can also use Dim Light, or 10' from it, as a new trigger. It has nothing at all to do with movement and stealth. It has nothing to do with giving your character more actions.
This depends on Stealth being a type of action. It is not defined as such as far as I can tell. If it is not an action, and it does not require a move action or even movement and the rogue has dipped into SD to get HiPs, what rule doesn't allow the rogue to stealth in plain site as long as he is 10' away from a dim light square after making a full-round action? You are aloud to take a 5-foot step, free action, and a swift action as part of a full-round action so why not a stealth check?
Pass or Fail Ratios These have nothing to do with how the rules work. The necromancer in your example is of no consequence.
The necromancer was simply given as an example as to why this tactic wouldn't make the rogue invincible. Since the necromancer has a perception of +24 and our level 8 rogue had a stealth of + 21 (he has some goodies on) he has a high chance of being detected and not receiving his sneak attack bonus or catching the enemy flat footed.
Attacking and Stealth This is the same if you have HiPS or not. You cannot attack and hide at the same time. Basically all this means is that you need a trigger to perform the hide. Again, it could be a distraction, cover, concealment or with HiPS it can be Dim Light.
I wasn't aware that I was proposing that the rogue/SD attack and stealth at the same time. The stealth happens after the attack. Now this is the best argument I have seen so far. I have always thought that rule meant that you blow your cover when you attack, however, if a full round attack + 5 foot step means that you are simultaneously attacking and taking a 5 foot step then I see your point about not being able to do a stealth check. Everything done during a full-round attack (5-foot step, swift action, free action, etc..) happens simultaneously.
Also, if you full attack from stealth, only the first attack gets the benefit of being from stealth. The following attacks do not get sneak attack. (Search for invisibility to see examples abound).
That makes sense. Can anyone direct me to this in the CRB? I can't seem to find this.
Change in Parameters As originally presented, you asked if you could full attack, 5-foot step and hide. That answer is no. The full attack means you cannot make a move action or move equivalent action in the same round. That move action or move equivalent action is required to stealth. As stated, HiPS doesn't change this, it just gives you another trigger.
Stealth does not require a movement or a move action. It is usually done as part of a movement but it is not required.
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From your other thread, I know that the real question is, "If I have Hide in Plain Site, can I attack someone, then remain within 5' and use stealth to hide from them during the same round?" I read the entirety of both threads and studied the rules for Stealth & Hide in Plain Sight. The best RAW answer I can come up with is, "No, you can't do that."
My reasoning:
- Stealth explicitly states that it may not be used while attacking.
"It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking. . ."- Pathfinder has a rule that governs attacking from stealth and remaining hidden. They call it "sniping" and it may only be used with ranged combat.
"If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location."- If you could attack/hide/attack in melee, one of three situations would exist:
1. There would be a rule or rules covering it.
2. The sniping rule wouldn't exist as an exception to the statement "It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking."
3. The sniping rule would cover it.
I always understood the sniping rule as an exception to regular stealth because the attacker is ranged and not melee. Since once the ranged attacker fires and gives away his position he is effectively "observed" because his position is known. So a regular joe could make a stealth check at penalty even though the enemy knows where he is. HiPS negates this because the attacker should be able to hide while being observed as long as there is dim light within 10'. But this is really an aside to the topic I was exploring I guess - although I am still getting good insight from you guys so that is all that matters!
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So I think I have been convinced that with HiPS:
1. A full-round attack + 5-foot step + stealth is not possible. The only reason is due to the fact that everything that occurs during a full-round attack is interpreted as happening simultaneously - not one after the other. For example, a full round attack, 5 foot step, and yelling at a comrade are all happening at the same time. If that is true, making a stealth check during your 5 foot step violates the rule: "It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging".
2. A standard attack + 5 foot step (or move action for that matter) + stealth is possible because your attack has ended prior to the movement and you are no longer "attacking" and are not breaking the rule from #1. I suppose this gives the rogue/shadowdancer a nice defensive ability to get out of melee if he is heavily injured but still allows him an attack - it is certainly better than having to make a full-round action to withdrawal.
It would be cool if there were a feat to make 1 possible.
Thanks for the insight everyone!
Cheers!
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As to simultaneous claims: they are incorrect. These are sequential occurrences. A character dropping from say fireshield damage does not get to 5' step before falling unconscious. Right? Why not? If the attack and 5' step were simultaneous they would be allowed to do so.If this last disturbs you, then the whole creature closing to a character then the character being able to full attack even though the prior round the creature was not fully there... would be untenable to you as well. That's not how the game works, and really there's not a nice fix in the combat system to allow for it.
Yes lets talk about this because so far this has been the only thing that has convinced me that you cannot stealth after making a full-round attack.
Your first example: Let me make sure I understand what you are saying. A character full-round attacks someone that has fire shield damage, takes 1d6+1 damage, which drops his hp to below zero causing him to fall unconscious. Is this correct? I thought that damage was resolved at the end of the attackers turn. I would have it play out like so: Bob makes a full-round attack against John (who has fire shield) and then 5-foot steps. The fire shield damage lowers Bob's hp to -1 and Bob falls unconscious. In my head this plays out because Bob attacks is set aflame takes a 5 foot step and then drops. People really do this when on fire so it doesn't bother me that much.
As to your second example I am not sure I understand. Everything that happens during Bob's TURN was simultaneous. Everything that happens during a round is sequential but just barely (6 seconds). Bob would see the goblin moving toward him and begin his full-attack. This is just how I interpret things...I could be wrong though. (this is why I really like hackmaster 5e combat).
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Yes lets talk about this because so far this has been the only thing that has convinced me that you cannot stealth after making a full-round attack.
Your first example: Let me make sure I understand what you are saying. A character full-round attacks someone that has fire shield damage, takes 1d6+1 damage, which drops his hp to below zero causing him to fall unconscious. Is this correct? I thought that damage was resolved at the end of the attackers turn. I would have it play out like so: Bob makes a full-round attack against John (who has fire shield) and then 5-foot steps. The fire shield damage lowers Bob's hp to -1 and Bob falls unconscious. In my head this plays out because Bob attacks is set aflame takes a 5 foot step and then drops. People really do this when on fire so it doesn't bother me that much.
As to your second example I am not sure I understand. Everything that happens during Bob's TURN was simultaneous. Everything that happens during a round is sequential but just barely (6 seconds). Bob would see the goblin moving toward him and begin his full-attack. This is just how I interpret things...I could be wrong though. (this is why I really like hackmaster 5e combat).
While actions taken by characters and monsters do simultaneously occur, there are no mechanisms within the game to represent this within a six-second round. Therefore, actions of each character and monster are handled sequentially.
There are many RL situations that have no rules within the game. These are the times when a GM must adjudicate the situation. It is also not a bad thing to hand wave the rules for minor theatrical moments.
Since the action mentions movement, i think they mean it to be part of a move action. The 5 foot step wouldn't work.
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Since the action mentions movement, i think they mean it to be part of a move action. The 5 foot step wouldn't work.
Well it doesn't require any type of movement at all. The rule states that a stealth check is usually a non-action but is usually done as part of a movement. It doesn't say it has to be done as part of a movement.
So if you want to stealth without movement, what type of action do you think it is? Do you think it is a free action that takes no effort allowing you to hide then full attack?
Here are a bunch of examples of movement that while not explicitly banned, would not, in my opinion, allow an extra use of stealth.
What about while using acrobatics? Can you stealth while rolling around on the floor? You are moving then.
What about using climb during a 5-foot step? Climb reads that:
"Climbing is part of movement, so it’s generally
part of a move action (and may be combined with other
types of movement in a move action)."
While generally part of a move action, it doesn't have to be. So by your ruling you can climb as a 5-foot step.
Would you allow someone to stealth in the middle of an Overrun? This is movement as well.
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Moving your arm is also movement. Just because you did so does not mean you get to make a stealth check. The same applies to the 5-foot step. While you may be moving, repositioning really, you are not involved in the type of movement that takes enough time to give you the chance to take another action, such as stealth or drawing a weapon.
While it is clearly movement, it also falls under the no action category of actions, just like the 5-foot step does. The 5-foot step is defined as another type of action that is not a move action.
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Drawing a weapon is a free action if you have +1 BAB and are moving. A 5-foot step does not count as this movement. This is exactly the same economy of actions as adding stealth to the 5-foot step.
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Would you allow any of the following:
1. An immobilized creature to 5' step?
2. A creature to 5' step but then claim the stealth bonus for not moving?
3. A creature to 5' step but not trigger a readied action for 'when he moves'.
1: No. 2: No. 3: No.
For example, fighting a blinded opponent a character could full attack, and then quietly 5' step. They would be at penalty for doing so (full speed), but it would be possible.
I would rule this is not possible at all as you have no economy of actions left to allow you to stealth. Take out the 5-foot step. Would you allow the fighter to hide then? If so what type of action would you assign to it, a free action?
Economy of Actions allow you to take these actions in a round:
Unlimited Free Actions
1 swift or immediate action
1 standard action
1 move action or move equivalent action
5-foot step
Other non actions or bonus actions (AoO)
OR
Unlimited Free Actions
1 full round action
1 swift or immediate action
5-foot step
Other non actions or bonus actions (AoO)
Summary
I feel it all comes down to the Economy of Actions. I do not feel that the rules allow you to gain any extra action by means of adding a 5-foot step to your turn. If you don't have the Economy of Actions to stealth while standing still, why would adding a no action action allow you to gain yet another action?
But at this point we have presented both sides and you just have to decide how many things you should be allowed to do in one round.
Happy Gaming.
As to climb, you are correct. My point was that based on the idea that one could stealth because of a 5-foot step, only because it is movement, than one could also climb as a 5-foot step because it is movement. I was trying to draw the parallel to show that it shouldn't work.
A slight deviation, but within the same topic area. I get the feeling that the use of Spring Attack with Stealth would achieve the original poster's goal. The attacker emerges unseen from the shadows, strikes their oppponent and disappears back into the shadows again - but they couldn't use a full attack with Spring Attack.
Acrobatics + Stealth: There are many occasions where I can see the two being used together (just think of the ninja). I would rule that the movement speed penalties stack. I.e. Acrobatics reduces movement to half speed and Stealth also reduces speed to half, so the overall effect of stealthy acrobatics is quarter speed [in difficult terrain, this could be eighth speed]. Half speed acrobatic movement would be considered the same as full speed stealth and full speed acrobatics through a threatened area could not be done stealthily.
It doesn't say that you can only stealth during movement or as a part of another action.
Agreed. My question is what type of action is it to stealth if you are not doing is as part of movement? I would rule it is a move action.