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Looking for help with a PFS build for a friend. The idea came from this thread:
PFS Spontaneous Caster but NOT Party Face
He wants the magic to be the primary strength of the character. Any weapons capability will be of only secondary concern. He is kinda new to PF, but the pace of PFS gaming should give plenty of time to get used to know capabilities when gained. I haven’t really built a character just like this, so I want some ideas and opinions.
What is probably set for the build.
Oracle of bones – single class
Wasted Curse - won't be party face with that.
Strong Possibilities for the build.
Osirion faction
Half-Orc, +2 to anything, +2 intimidate, acute darkvision or sacred tattoo, great oracle favored class
Half-Elf, +2 to anything, spell paragon surge (yes I know it is considered cheesy), great oracle favored class
Gnome, +2 cha, fell magic, decent favored class bonus, knack with poisons
Dual cursed with tongues as secondary (he loves the idea of misfortune)
Eldritch heritage (and improved) with the undead bloodline – really fits the concept, but not sure it gives enough to be worth it.
Greater spell focus necromancy
Reach spell – quick scan seemed like a lot of the good necromancy spells are touch
Revelations – 1 Raise Dead, 3 Undead Servitude, 7 Near Death, 11 Spirit Walk
Looking for opinions on the revelations. Let me know if I am way off base.
Armor of Bones – This seems most useful if you are in situations where it was inappropriate to wear armor, surprised in your sleep (or other down time), or get your armor stolen. Those don’t seem like they will come up all that often in PFS. Am I wrong?
Bleeding Wounds – This would go well with taking the inflict rather than cure spells, so he could get them for free. But many people on the boards act like they are poor spells so I was thinking no. What do you think?
Death’s Touch – Would also work with Bleeding Wounds and would also heal any allied undead without using my spells. Seems kinda minor though.
Near Death – Bonus on saves is always nice. Do these come up often enough in PFS to be worth it? I’m think yes.
Raise the Dead – Not a great companion, but it is something and can use it before there are dead bodies for animating. Seems like a big help for the early levels.
Resist Life – I haven’t seen enough negative channelers in my short time with PFS for this to seem worth it.
Soul Siphon – Giving the BBEG a negative level with no save seems great. But by 7th level seems not much better than the spells I could have.
Spirit Walk – Incorporeal seems lovely, but won’t get it until close to retirement. Is it really worth it by then?
Undead Servitude – I have read somewhere that almost 1/3 of the PFS modules have at least 1 undead in them. So this seems good. But I could also learn the command undead spell which is almost as good.
Voices of the Grave – Seems like it could be done almost as well with a few scrolls. Does this really come up that often?
I could offer a bunch of specific suggestions on the build, but I have a larger question. Is it your friend's idea to play a necromancer type, or yours?
I ask because, in my opinion, Bones is a weak mystery, and raising undead minions is a rather rules-intensive aspect of the game, better left to more experienced players.
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Both of us.
I guess we picked bones just cause it seemed like it went really well with the wasted curse and one of the Osirion faction stuff.
We probably wouldn't be too worried about it being a little weaker than some as long as it is not worthless.
Hmm... I guess we didn't think of it as rules intensive since you can only pick skeletons or zombies instead of all the myriad of things regular summon monster spells can do. If it is too tough we probably would not go with it. How did you mean?
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Guess if people think animating is too tough to learn, we could get rid of the Raise Dead revelation and put in the Soul Siphon. Then just not use the spell Animate Undead until he feels like he understands it well enough. Reasonable?
At the rate he will make it to PFS events he probably won't make it to 6th level for a year anyway.
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However if people think the Bones mystery is too weak, that will take more reworking and thought. What would you recommend instead?
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Bones is not a weak mystery. Yes, there are a few lackluster spells like cause fear, but you also get excellent ones like false life and slay living.
The revelations are perfectly fine as well: You can gain Command Undead with a charisma-based caster, meaning you WILL be taking over the undead. Armour of Bones is great as well: my level 7 oracle has just gotten rid of his breastplate because now he can move at full speed with relatively the same AC. Near Death gives some great save bonuses, and I'm looking forward to the excellent Bleeding Wounds + Mass Inflict Light Wounds combo.
Make sure to be a negative caster, and either be a dhampir or grab the Resist Life revelation.
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Bones is not a weak mystery. Yes, there are a few lackluster spells like cause fear, but you also get excellent ones like false life and slay living.
The revelations are perfectly fine as well: You can gain Command Undead with a charisma-based caster, meaning you WILL be taking over the undead ...
That's what we were thinking.
... Armour of Bones is great as well: my level 7 oracle has just gotten rid of his breastplate because now he can move at full speed with relatively the same AC ...
That one didn't seem that great to me. Up to level 6 it only saving you the cost of a chain shirt. Levels 7-10 it saves the cost of a mithral breatplate. But I figure I can probably afford that before then.
... Near Death gives some great save bonuses ...
Save bonus is always good.
... I'm looking forward to the excellent Bleeding Wounds + Mass Inflict Light Wounds combo.
Is that really worth it? Almost all of the comments on the boards act like the inflict spells are a waste and I wasn't sure a few points of bleed is worth 1 of my 4 precious revelations.
... Make sure to be a negative caster, and either be a dhampir or grab the Resist Life revelation.Can't be dhampir in PFS (except if received a boon) but why? Can't channel to damage or heal only command. So it only seems like it would help if you know there will be another negative channeler in the group. I haven't seen any so far.
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Bones is a fun one to play if you like necromancy its not a strong blaster but not everyone has to be good at DPR, Metal is good if you want to be melee, Life is good but you become the healer but is strong at that. I like earth just the thought of throwing stones for alot of damage is fun for me.
Doesn't need to DPR, poison/disease/curse/enervation are lots of fun.
Not interested in melee focus.
Doesn't want to be healbot.
Yeah, I will mention the stone thrower to him. That does sound kinda like him.
JuJu oracle are better for undeads.
Can control more undeads - and make Juju zombies earliere (but they are slightly broken) - but even if you just give him normal reate undead at lvl 10 it's still great.
be a elf with lore keepker ACF to add some wizard spells to the list, or Samsarans to add a few extra spell from day one.
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Dhampir was helpful for me (I had the boon, by the way), because it gave me the freedom to be a negative caster without worrying about whether I would have healing. Armour of Bones is excellent for me because I want to not have to buy a mithral breastplate; the savings are pretty nice, especially once it increases again. I'm also pretty sure a casting of magic vestment would make it better, although you may not want to spend one of your spells known on that.
Inflict light wounds, mass + Bleeding Wounds is the mook killer. At level 10 I'll be able to pick 9 enemies and do 1d8+10 damage to them +3 bleed damage a turn, and heal myself for 1d8+10 at the same time. The bleed also applies to any of the spells I deliver in melee, and I built my oracle to be all about inflicting wounds on people.
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JuJu oracle are better for undeads.
Can control more undeads - and make Juju zombies earliere (but they are slightly broken) - but even if you just give him normal reate undead at lvl 10 it's still great.be a elf with lore keepker ACF to add some wizard spells to the list, or Samsarans to add a few extra spell from day one.
I don't believe Juju or Samsarans are legal for PFS play. I can't find them on the additional resources page anyway.
Inflict light wounds, mass + Bleeding Wounds is the mook killer. At level 10 I'll be able to pick 9 enemies and do 1d8+10 damage to them +3 bleed damage a turn, and heal myself for 1d8+10 at the same time.
1d8+10, plus a turn of bleed, averages 17.5 damage, which is exactly the same as a 5th level arcane caster's Fireball, half as much as a 10th level caster's Fireball, granting a Will save rather than a Reflex save (Will saves are usually higher than reflex saves.), at short range rather than long range, at the cost of a 5th level spell rather than a 3rd level spell - and Fireball isn't generally considered a particularly good spell.
Inflict does have the advantage of choosing targets separately, rather than by area, and if you happen to be down hit points is will heal you a bit.
Both of us.
I guess we picked bones just cause it seemed like it went really well with the wasted curse and one of the Osirion faction stuff.
We probably wouldn't be too worried about it being a little weaker than some as long as it is not worthless.
Hmm... I guess we didn't think of it as rules intensive since you can only pick skeletons or zombies instead of all the myriad of things regular summon monster spells can do. If it is too tough we probably would not go with it. How did you mean?
Great! If the reason your friend is choosing to play a bones oracle is that he'll have fun being a necromancer - go for it! Rule #1 is have fun!
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- Oracles can be good in melee, but this character won't be.
- Oracles can be good at DPR, but this character won't be.
- Oracles can have excellent social skills, but this character won't.
- Oracles can be excellent buffers, but this character isn't.
- Oracles can be good healers, but this character won't be.
(You'll have the basic healing spells, but you might not have the secondary healing spells like Cure Blindness/Deafness, Minor Restoration, Restoration, Heal, Breath of Life, Remove Curse/Poison, etc. And, you don't have Channel Energy for group healing. So, you're a mediocre healer.)
The key question from an effectiveness point of view is, what does this character bring to the party?
The strongest contribution you haven't eliminated already is summoning, which can be very strong, but it also takes an experienced player to manage his own actions plus summoned creatures without taking ten minutes for every turn.
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... I'm going to speak purely about effectiveness for a moment here.
•Oracles can ... but this character won't be.
(You'll have the basic healing spells, but you might not have the secondary healing spells like Cure Blindness/Deafness, Minor Restoration, Restoration, Heal, Breath of Life, Remove Curse/Poison, etc. And, you don't have Channel Energy for group healing. So, you're a mediocre healer.)The key question from an effectiveness point of view is, what does this character bring to the party?
The strongest contribution you haven't eliminated already is summoning, which can be very strong, but it also takes an experienced player to manage his own actions plus summoned creatures without taking ten minutes for every turn.
Well, what were thinking was bringing mostly debuff type spells (poison, curse, etc…). Wasn’t planning on taking the cure X spells. Was planning on the inflict X spells. That would give another way to attack and do some damage (even if not that great of spell it is something). And it seems everyone is expected to have 1 or more click sticks. But was going to take some of the condition removals (lesser restoration, remove curse, remove poison). Which are less likely to be a bunch of on hand.
If you are only talking about the complication of another set of actions, he should be able to handle that by the time it is an issue. He has played other RPG’s just not PF. By the time he can animate much of anything, we figure he should have had plenty of time to learn most of the rules pretty well. He is responsible and considerate enough that if he doesn’t have the rules down he just wouldn’t do it. He’s not going to slow down other people’s game while he looks through books for the ultimate move.
He is responsible and considerate enough that if he doesn’t have the rules down he just wouldn’t do it. He’s not going to slow down other people’s game while he looks through books for the ultimate move.
Good! He sounds like the kind of person we all enjoy playing with! Your good attitude in this thread and the fact that you're going out of your way to help him say the same about you. I have a feeling you'll both have a great time, whatever you choose to play.
The key question from an effectiveness point of view is, what does this character bring to the party?Well, what were thinking was bringing mostly debuff type spells (poison, curse, etc…).
That sounds fun, and it can probably be fairly effective if you play wisely and have some good damage dealers in the party to finish off the the gimped enemies. Personally, I'd pursue that plan with a witch, since they get all of the good gimp spells, plus unlimited curses.
In any case, to make those spells work you're going to need high save DCs, carefully chosen spells, and possibly some way to deliver touch spells (feat, rod, weapon, etc).
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Eldritch Heritage could give you a familiar to deliver touch spells, or you could try to pump UMD for spectral hand. I'm not a fan of Reach Spell, because ranged touch spells are not as reliable as melee touch spells. First off, if you miss you lose the charge. Secondly, there's the Precise Shot and cover penalties.
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How often does spell resistance come up in PFS. I have heard that it has a higher than usual percentage of 'people' type opponents. Since most of those don't have SR it seems like this might not be as big a deal.
Trying to decide between Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penentration, Piercing Spell and Extra Revelation, or 2 Extra Revelations.
How often does spell resistance come up in PFS. I have heard that it has a higher than usual percentage of 'people' type opponents. Since most of those don't have SR it seems like this might not be as big a deal.
Trying to decide between Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penentration, Piercing Spell and Extra Revelation, or 2 Extra Revelations.
In my experience, SR usually isn't an issue until you're approaching level 10.
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... you could try to pump UMD for spectral hand ...That had not occured to me. I love this idea. I was trying to read through and find all the ones that are not touch. But most of the good ones seem to be touch.
Just to make sure I understand this correctly.
Is using spectral hand to deliver touch attack spells a melee touch attack (using str) or a ranged touch attack (using dex)?|
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Looking at:
Gnome, Neutral – take the alternate Fell Magic and Knack with Poisons
Oracle of Bones, Dual Cursed – Tongues (Aklo?) and Wasted (doesn’t advance) – choose inflict spells
Str 6 (8-2), Dex 12, Con 16 (14+2), Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 19 (17+2)
01 feat Extra Revelation (Resist Life), revelation Undead Servitude
03 feat Spell Focus (Necromancy), revelation Misfortune
05 feat Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy), revelation Near Death
07 feat Undead Master, revelation Soul Siphon
09 feat Heighten Spell OR Extra Revelation (Bleeding Wounds), revelation Fortune
11 feat Piercing Spell, revelation Spirit Walk
Seem reasonable?
Still working on spell list
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Spectral hand is a melee touch attack you can deliver from range. It's much better, but if you're going to have a low strength you may want Weapon Finesse for delivering those attacks.
You probably want to switch which of your curses advance. Tongues has a very low penalty, but the advantages you get from it advancing are meagre. Wasting, on the other hand, gives you all kinds of immunities.
I don't think you necessarily need Greater Spell Focus, so I would consider grabbing Weapon Finesse at that point. That would give you a net +3 to your touch attacks, which can make a big difference. At level 5 touching with strength you would be looking at a +2 touch, while with Finesse you'd have +5. Honestly though, I would consider raising Strength back up to a base 10 by lowering Wisdom.
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Yeah, will look at either Weapon Finesse or raising strength.
My reasoning (such as it is) was that the wasting could give immunity to sickened and disease. The sickened condition isn't as bad and didn't seem like one that would come up very often. The revelation Near Death already gives a +4 to save vs disease plus he has a decent consitution. However, I did forget that oracles do no have a good fortitude save like clerics do. So maybe that isn't sufficient.
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Well, I think I will still keep Near Death since that will eventually give a +4 vs diseases, mind-affecting effects, poisons, death effects, sleep effects, and stunning. That's a pretty good list for a +4 to saves.
But I think you are right about the Tongues curse not giving a lot. I just reread it and realized at PFS levels it is only understand any spoken words. Not speak or reading them. Things written or conversations in other languages seems to have come up a bit in several PFS events but this wouldn't actually help with that. For some reason I was thinking it would give me all languages.
So yeah, will switch the primary curse.
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Well the list of good oracle necromancy spells is not as long as I would like. But there are several very good ones. So I think there are enough for me to go with this.
Necro spells
1
Inflict Light – will - touch
Cause Fear – will – close
Doom – will – med
Ray of Sickening - fort save
2
Inflict Moderate – will -touch
Death Knell – will – touch
3
Inflict Serious – will - touch
Bestow Curse – will – touch
Blindness/Deafness – fort – med
Contagion – fort – touch
4
Inflict Critical – will - touch
Aura of Doom - will save - 20’ aura
Poison – fort - touch
5
Inflict Light, Mass – will - close
Contagion, Greater – fort save - close
Curse, Major - will save – close
Slay Living – fort - touch
Symbol of Pain – fort – 0
6
Inflict Moderate, Mass – will - close
Harm – will - touch
Plague Storm – fort save – med range 20’ cloud
Symbol of Fear – fort – 0
Undeath to Death – will – med 40’ burst