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has there been any official ruling on what the penalty is for the arrow stab from the stabbing shot feat? i've only seen a couple discussions about it, one seemed to think it was a -6 penalty (the -2 from the feat itself plus the -4 for using an improvised weapon). the other school of thought is that the spirit of the feat intends it to only be a -2, assuming that the feat trains you to use the arrow as a dagger-like weapon for this purpose.
anyway, stabbing shot: Benefit: When adjacent to an opponent and making a full-attack action with a longbow or shortbow (including composite bows), you may choose to make a melee attack against that opponent with a drawn arrow rather than firing it. If the attack hits—whether or not it does damage—your target is pushed back 5 feet away from you. You can then fire arrows from your bow normally, at the original target, or at another target within range. This melee attack replaces the extra attack from Rapid Shot, and all of your attack rolls for the round (the melee attack and the ranged attacks) take a –2 penalty. If your initial attack leaves you with no enemies threatening you, you can make the subsequent ranged attack or attacks without provoking attacks of opportunity.
I think it's at -6 and that Stabbing Shot is a waste of a feat created specifically just so people could mimic Orlando Bloom's Legolas.
I can think of very, very few circumstances in which pushing the enemy back 5' would be helpful and allow your bow attacks without Provoking, but taking a 5' step yourself wouldn't.
I think it's at -6 and that Stabbing Shot is a waste of a feat created specifically just so people could mimic Orlando Bloom's Legolas.
I can think of very, very few circumstances in which pushing the enemy back 5' would be helpful and allow your bow attacks without Provoking, but taking a 5' step yourself wouldn't.
i, as well, suspect it is probably -6, which would make it kind of a b-grade feat. i like the flavor of it (even if it is a blatant lotr ripoff), it gives an archer a little more flash. i was thinking if it is only -2, it would be a great way for my archer to deal with those pesky fighters that have the step up/step up and strike feats. hurt them and put some distance between you, what is not to like? if its -6, well, odds of hitting an armored opponent are a lot lower. i wonder if weapon finesse would work with this...
the other thing (one of the other discussions mentioned this as well, with no resolution), could you use this to push someone off a cliff? it also makes no mention of size factor. i could easily see gms house ruling this so you can't move any creature larger than yourself, and giving a save of some sort to not fall off aforementioned hypothetical cliff, otherwise i see potential for abuse.
Side track comment, but if you use stabbing shot you get your full attack and the target is pushed back 5'. Then after your attack you take a 5' step back. The target is now no longer within a 5' step of you so they lose their full attack if they close with you. (Unless they have reach or something like that.)
We have always played it as -2 only. I think if they wanted it to be a total of -6 they would have commented on that in the feat.
Argh, why didn't I think of this feat during that silly "do all ranged attacks in a full-attack provoke?" thread.
I'll begrudgingly say -6, but my guess is that the author didn't think of the improvised weapon aspect. There are so many tangentially related rules that missing one can be quite easy.
Why would it be -6? If the improvised weapon penalty is -4... then why take the feat at all? Just use the arrow at the -4 as an improvised weapon?? why take a feat to get a worse to hit bonus in trade for a 5' push back?
That's not the intent of the feat.
the intent of the feat is use your arrow as a melee weapon at the -2 modifier. So it is greater than just using an arrow otherwise as an improvised weapon, it's a trained archer using it in a trained (via the feat) way, to rip off orlando bloom!
No, the intent of the feat is to push an enemy back as part of your full attack, using the Rapid Shot feat, which is normally for ranged weapons, to make a melee attack.
I think it should be -2. I also think it's a complete waste of a feat. Even if Point Blank Master didn't exist.
I think it should be -2. I also think it's a complete waste of a feat. Even if Point Blank Master didn't exist.
the character i have is a rogue that's all about ranged combat (his day job is an archery instructor). point blank master requires weapon specialization which has a prerequisite of 4 levels of fighter. :(
not really trying to min/max so much, just add some flavor, but hopefully some flavor that's not completely useless.anyone have an opinion on whether or not you could use weapon finesse for the attack bonus on the arrow stab?
Catch-Off Guard seems like a feat to take just in case your GM is in the it is a -6 camp.
I think it is Intended to allow you to not take the Imp. Weapon Penalty, BUT it was badly worded. But it seems pretty nice even if you suffer the -6 penalty. Especially if you can't get Point-Blank Master.
Catch-Off Guard seems like a feat to take just in case your GM is in the it is a -6 camp.
I think it is Intended to allow you to not take the Imp. Weapon Penalty, BUT it was badly worded. But it seems pretty nice even if you suffer the -6 penalty. Especially if you can't get Point-Blank Master.
yeah, that would be the feat to take, in that case, but then you've used two feats for something that you'd only use occasionally. i think i'll talk to the gm and if she doesn't go the -2 route, i'll probably pick something a little more useful.
when i first read catch off-guard i missed the whole "unarmed opponents" part and thought "wow, that would make the arrow stab in stabbing shot beastly from a rogue", i then re-read and was very sad.
It would be epic if you combined it with a Disarm focused partner.
They disarm and then you Stabbing Shot them back then have say a third character collect the weapon.
Now they can't easily reclaim the weapon.
yea but now youve taken two feats to pull off the same thing the hobbit next to you is doing with a frying pan.
I'd just use the improvised weapon rules and move on...
I think it's at -6 and that Stabbing Shot is a waste of a feat created specifically just so people could mimic Orlando Bloom's Legolas.
I can think of very, very few circumstances in which pushing the enemy back 5' would be helpful and allow your bow attacks without Provoking, but taking a 5' step yourself wouldn't.
It seems every time I read one of your posts its focused on _________ is a waste of a feat or __________ is a terrible feat not worth the slot or some thing to the effect. Are there any feats worth taking Mplus?
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Manyshot
Clustered Shots
Point Blank Master
Improved Precise Shot
Deadly Aim
Weapon Focus
.....
Dodge
Toughness
Skill Focus
Eldritch Heritage
Not Stabbing Shot, though.
Is that enough feats worth taking, or shall I list more?
Is there a reason you need more than 1 avatar/username? Or are you a friend of Mplus? The point was, the thread was looking for a ruling on how a feat works, not whether it's a waste of a feat or not and certain people seem to not be able to turn off their "optimizer" button to answer the question.
I am not Mpl, nor am I his friend. If the salary were high enough, I would possibly be ammenable to playing him on tv, though.
If the feat just replicates something you can do without the feat, and wont be doing it often.. then it isnt worth the feat just to be able to do it a little bit better.
ESPECIALLY if the feat lets you do something you could already do at -4, but now it's -6 and the trade off is pushing the critter back 5 feet?
meh. not worth it.
which brings me back to the it's an upgrade (-2) not an additive (-6), its the only way it would make sense as a feat.
That racial heritage trait should be able to get you to qualify for things like this.... raised by elves kind of thing.... I cant see this being by virtue of having elf genes thing.
It's kind of anachronistic dont you think? If you dont have to be an elf to be an arcane archer anymore, why would you need to be an elf to poke someone in the eye with an arrow?
Stabbing Shot is one of those Meant to allow fluff while providing a nice mechanical trick.
Not everything is about getting the high numbers.
Honestly, Elf is an odd requirement.
But a Half-Elf can get it as well.
It seems every time I read one of your posts its focused on _________ is a waste of a feat or __________ is a terrible feat not worth the slot or some thing to the effect. Are there any feats worth taking Mplus?I think it's at -6 and that Stabbing Shot is a waste of a feat created specifically just so people could mimic Orlando Bloom's Legolas.
I can think of very, very few circumstances in which pushing the enemy back 5' would be helpful and allow your bow attacks without Provoking, but taking a 5' step yourself wouldn't.
There are lots of good feats. It just happens that people very frequently talk a lot about bad ones.
The game contains a lot of trap feats that seem cool, but aren't actually useful. I love roleplaying games and I want other people to enjoy them, too. When you take bad feats and suck as a result, you don't have a good time. I just want to save people from that.
For an archer, Stream of the Sky gave a great list (and yeah, I don't know them)--I maybe wouldn't suggest Toughness, but it wouldn't be so bad as to be a wasted choice.
Maybe you're just interested in bad feats, so you only see the threads where I point out why bad feats are bad? ;)
You must have missed the threads where I correct people who got rules wrong, help people with other build advice, or post about my love for Support characters.
which brings me back to the it's an upgrade (-2) not an additive (-6), its the only way it would make sense as a feat.
The -2 is because the feat utilizes Rapid Shot. It is simply reminding you that Rapid Shot involves a -2.
Nothing about it gets rid of the -4 penalty for using an improvised weapon.
One could argue that it is implied because the feat is terrible with the penalty, but the fact is, the feat is still terrible even then, because it just won't come up often--you'd almost have to try to use it by charging enemies and shoving them on purpose.
which brings me back to the it's an upgrade (-2) not an additive (-6), its the only way it would make sense as a feat.The -2 is because the feat utilizes Rapid Shot. It is simply reminding you that Rapid Shot involves a -2.
Nothing about it gets rid of the -4 penalty for using an improvised weapon.
One could argue that it is implied because the feat is terrible with the penalty, but the fact is, the feat is still terrible even then, because it just won't come up often--you'd almost have to try to use it by charging enemies and shoving them on purpose.
hmm good point.... I still wouldn't pick it. Id rather have improved unarmed strike and elbow to the face, take a 5 foot step and then shoot him in the face.
Edit: or maybe try and trip him. or take the feats to allow me to avoid AoOs.... just too many different ways to go here..
which brings me back to the it's an upgrade (-2) not an additive (-6), its the only way it would make sense as a feat.The -2 is because the feat utilizes Rapid Shot. It is simply reminding you that Rapid Shot involves a -2.
Nothing about it gets rid of the -4 penalty for using an improvised weapon.
One could argue that it is implied because the feat is terrible with the penalty, but the fact is, the feat is still terrible even then, because it just won't come up often--you'd almost have to try to use it by charging enemies and shoving them on purpose.
hmm good point.... I still wouldn't pick it. Id rather have improved unarmed strike and elbow to the face, take a 5 foot step and then shoot him in the face.
Edit: or maybe try and trip him. or take the feats to allow me to avoid AoOs.... just too many different ways to go here..
My Paladin Archer has the best AC in the party and, when smiting, is almost untouchable, so I frequently just stand in the enemy's face and taunt them while I shoot.
A normal archer, though, should generally never be in melee--it should take extreme effort to get in their face. If you really need Stabbing Shot, you're either bad at playing a ranged character or your GM is really vindictive and focused on getting at you.
so you use smite with stabbing shot? there's something you dont see every day.
"there I was, the monstrously powerful Zok! and then there was this elf chick with the holy point stick of doom... I barely escaped with my life....now I'm called One-eyed Zok, the monster....not to be confused with the one-eyed monster..."
I can see a Fighter(Archer) using Catch Off-Guard and Stabbing Shot as a way to get free from their foes Maybe even use it as a way to get a Melee in between the enemy and themselves.
Heaven knows My Archer could use some feats even if they aren't optimal... I don't understand why people feel they don't get enough Feats...
b/c they aren't fighters
Even as a Rogue/Druid/Cleric/Magus I don't have any problem not having enough feats...
Though my builds tend to be Feat light...
& I tend to take the Dual Talent Racial Variant now. Or I would always take Toughness as my Bonus Feat.
so you use smite with stabbing shot? there's something you dont see every day.
No, absolutely not. I Smite and then laugh at them while I shoot and ignore their AoOs because my AC shot up to 28 at level 5.
lol
I just thought of something.
Stabbing Shot plus the Great Beast Totem rage power and Caught Off Guard allows for pouncing shots. Maybe. It's late and I haven't slept.
Is it bad that I keep thinking of the LotRO Hunter Ability where they punch the Enemy then shot them once?