Grab special ability + grappling feats

[EvilMinion]

Can someone tell me if I'm interpreting the damage potential correct for the following grappling scenario:

goblin feral gnasher barbarian (using only his bite for which he has the grab special ability from Lockjaw)
feats: improved grapple, greater grapple, rapid grappler
rage powers: animal fury

Round 1:
Standard Action - attack (bite): do bite damage
Free Action - Grab attack: do bite damage again

Potential Damage round 1: 2 x bite damage

Round 2:
start to maintain grapple
Free Action - Animal Fury bite attack: do AF bite damage
Move Action - maintain grapple: do bite damage + grab damage
Swift Action - grapple check via Rapid Grappler: do bite damage + grab damage
Standard Action - grapple check: do bite damage + grab damage

Potential Damage round 2: 6 x bite damage + animal fury bite damage

I'm working under the follow assumptions:
- Greater Grapple can only be used to maintain a grapple as a move action, so can't be used on round one.
- Rapid Grappler can only be used if you succeed on maintaining with Greater Grapple, so also can not be used on round one (and can't be used at all if you fail to maintain with the move action from Greater Grapple in following rounds, even if you manage to maintain with your standard action grapple check). Rapid Grappler can never be used to maintain a grapple for the same reasons.
- you can only 'maintain' a grapple once in a round. once successful, any further grapple checks are just grapple check, not maintaining (thus Animal Fury can only be used once each round (or twice if first attempt to maintain misses))
- grab damage occurs automatically whenever you succeed on a grapple check

Am I interpreting all of this correctly? (especially when you can or cannot maintain a grapple or how often)

[Oladon]

Erm... how do you figure you can do bite damage on your initial Grab ability? (Btw, Grab is an ability, not an attack.)

[EvilMinion]

perhaps I cannot. Thus the question to all you friendly folk.

[Oladon]

Grab allows you to attempt a grapple* when you hit with a regular attack. The damage doesn't change, nor do you get extra damage for succeeding on the grapple.

Does this help?

* as a free action, without provoking attacks of opportunity

[EvilMinion]

For some reason, I thought that on a successful grapple, you could do damage... but upon further rereading ya, only on rounds after the 1st does that occur.

So no damage at all for grappling on round one.

[Cheapy]

Animal Fury won't stack with your bite attack from Savage Bite.

Unless you have a second head that you didn't tell us about, your bite attack was already used up for the round.

Roud 1 just does bite damage once. You don't roll the "grab damage" until successive rounds.

It's also really strange to think that since you're holding on to him with your mouth that you can keep on biting.

I'll ask the designer about this one...

[BigNorseWolf]

I do not believe you can use the grab ability on someone that you're already grappling: thats like tripping someone thats already prone. You would have to let go as a free action (which you can do since you control the grapple) and attempt to grab them again.

[EvilMinion]

Cheapy wrote:

Animal Fury won't stack with your bite attack from Savage Bite.

Hmmm... I was under the impression that it was a free attack that got included in the action to maintain the grapple.

Though I suppose the rage power was never designed with a creature with a bite attack already in mind.
If true, however, then Animal Fury is totally useless to said feral gnasher.

Cheapy wrote:

Roud 1 just does bite damage once. You don't roll the "grab damage" until successive rounds.

Ya, Oladon hit on that same point, and upon rereading, I'd agree I have that part wrong.

[EvilMinion]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

I do not believe you can use the grab ability on someone that you're already grappling: thats like tripping someone thats already prone. You would have to let go as a free action (which you can do since you control the grapple) and attempt to grab them again.

Pretty sure that's how grab works, once you have them grappled with it, it does automatic damage from then on.

From the grab special ability description (ignoring the constrict part):

Quote:

each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold

[Cheapy]

It is in fact useless to the feral gnasher :)

If you want that attack back, use lesser beast totem or lesser fiend totem. Fiend totem is cooler imagery, imo.

[Sammy T]

You can Standard Action Attack/Grab and Move Action Greater Grapple in the first round.

Round 1:
Standard Action - attack (bite): do bite damage
Free Action - Grab attack
Move Action - maintain grapple: bite damage

Round 2:
Free Action - Animal Fury bite attack: do AF bite damage
Move Action - maintain grapple: do bite damage
Swift Action - grapple check via Rapid Grappler: do bite damage
Standard Action - grapple check: do bite damage

Whether or not you get grab damage is a little confuddling (according to this thread). I honestly believe you don't get grab damage each successful grab.

Edit:

Ugh, I just read about Improved Lockjaw. Technically, you would get continuing grab damage from that... I'm too tired to think this all through right now lol

[Oladon]

Once again, there is no extra damage when you use Grab.

[johnlocke90]

EvilMinion wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

I do not believe you can use the grab ability on someone that you're already grappling: thats like tripping someone thats already prone. You would have to let go as a free action (which you can do since you control the grapple) and attempt to grab them again.

Pretty sure that's how grab works, once you have them grappled with it, it does automatic damage from then on.

From the grab special ability description (ignoring the constrict part):

Quote:

each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold

It only does that if you establish a hold. Normally thats a -20 on grapple check, although Feral Gnasher gets free hold at level 6.

[Sammy T]

If you have the constrict ability, theoretically it does.

"A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text)."

"A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack."
If you grab them and hold them, you deal no damage UNLESS you have the constrict special attack. So, grab normally does no damage as most creatures do not have constrict.

"If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold."
If you, for whatever reason, decide not to constrict* for damage but you continue to grapple them you automatically deal damage via the grabbing appendage.

"Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text)."
If you do constrict, you get to do constriction damage with the hold. The "as well" indicates that this on top of the grab damage.

TLDR: if you have the constrict ability, your Grab (which normally doesn't do damage) does damage.

[Sammy T]

And to reference rathyr's question to James Jacobs:

rathyr wrote:

3.) Grab (ex) damage paragraph. Does this damage take place regardless of whether you choose the regular Grab(ex) grapple or -20 option? The use of the word 'hold' in the -20 option and damage paragraph immediately after is throwing me for a loop here, I can't tell if these are referring to each other or not.

James Jacobs wrote:

3) The only thing the –20 option does is free up the rest of you to do other things. Grapple rules work the same regardless.

[EvilMinion]

Sammy T wrote:

You can Standard Action Attack/Grab and Move Action Greater Grapple in the first round.

I've seen this said before, but can't figure out how folks are doing it.

Greater Grapple doesn't allow you to do any grapple check as a move action. It allows you to maintain a grapple as a move action.
In the first round, there is no maintaining roll going on.

[Oladon]

You're correct there, EvilMinion.

[Sammy T]

Greater Grapple wrote:

Greater Grapple (Combat)

Maintaining a grapple is second nature to you.

Prerequisites: Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +6, Dex 13.

Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.

Normal: Maintaining a grapple is a standard action.

The grapple you initiated as part of your grab? You're maintaining that.

If you made a standard action Grapple Combat Manuever and successfully grappled your opponent, you could move action Greater Grapple to maintain the grapple.

If you used a standard action melee attack, used the grab for a free action Grapple Combat Manuever and successfully grappled your opponent, you could move action Greater Grapple to maintain the grapple.

[Oladon]

That's not how maintaining works, Sammy.

[Sammy T]

Oladon, with great respect (and I truly mean that), you make terse, blanket refutations. Could you walk me through your reasoning? I am not saying am I not wrong (it wouldn't be the first time), but please share why I am wrong.

Also, if I am wrong, this would be along a flurry of blows level issue as the player base has been executing Greater Grapple/Rapid Grappler in a way the developers didn't intend them to.

[Oladon]

You don't "maintain" a grapple in the same turn that you begin grappling.

Grapple wrote:

If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold.

Now, the type of action (standard, move, etc.) can change, but maintaining the hold is pretty clearly spelled out as something you do in subsequent rounds (those following the turn in which you grapple).

[Sammy T]

Ugh. I hate that I'm posting so much lol.

James Jacobs has indeed clarified this is the way Greater Grapple (and by extension Rapid Grappler) is intended to work:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kr28?Greater-Grapple-feat-grappled-and-pinned- in#1

[johnlocke90]

Sammy T wrote:

Greater Grapple wrote:

Greater Grapple (Combat)

Maintaining a grapple is second nature to you.

Prerequisites: Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +6, Dex 13.

Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.

Normal: Maintaining a grapple is a standard action.

The grapple you initiated as part of your grab? You're maintaining that.

If you made a standard action Grapple Combat Manuever and successfully grappled your opponent, you could move action Greater Grapple to maintain the grapple.

If you used a standard action melee attack, used the grab for a free action Grapple Combat Manuever and successfully grappled your opponent, you could move action Greater Grapple to maintain the grapple.

Read the Grapple rules. It explicitely states maintaining is something you do on the round AFTER you grapple.

[EvilMinion]

JJ seems to be equating maintaining a grapple and a generic grapple check. Not sure if thats right, but there's a definite disconnect there.