Eidolon Bite Damage?

[Zelles]

Hi there,

Question: How much damage does an eidolon inflict when it has a Bite-attack, it is its only natural attack and it has taken the bite evolution twice?
Relevant text parts (Both taken from " http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/eidolons "):

"If the eidolon only has a single natural attack, the attack is made using its full base attack bonus and it adds 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with that attack, regardless of the attack’s type."
(directly under the heading "Evolutions")

"If the eidolon already has a bite attack, this evolution allows it to deal 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with its bite."
(Rules Text of "bite", 1 Point Evolution)

Does 2x 1-1/2 equal 3, since the Evolution text says it "adds" 1-1/2 times its strength modifier, so 1.5+1.5=3?
- So when it has a str of 14 (lvl 1 Quadruped eidolon) with only the bite evolution (taken an additional time to the free one you get), do you do 1d6+6 damage? Seems a little powerful for level 1, doesn't it?

Thanks for the answers :D

[mplindustries]

Taking the bite evolution twice in this case would do the same thing as having only a single natural attack.

If you had +2 Strength, you'd deal 1d6+3 in either case. It would not increase in any way beyond that.

And no, it's not powerful for level 1 because your typical two-handed weapon user will be doing 1d10 or 2d6 + 5-7 depending on stats and weapon.

[Hawktitan]

You only apply the str 1.5x once. Though I once designed a hydra-like elidon that focused on bites but also used a 2h weapon with an arm evolution. Basically it had 1.5x str on it's bites AND weapon attacks. It was pretty scary, forget the summoner, I'll play that monster :D.

[BW-Green]

Hawktitan wrote:

You only apply the str 1.5x once. Though I once designed a hydra-like elidon that focused on bites but also used a 2h weapon with an arm evolution. Basically it had 1.5x str on it's bites AND weapon attacks. It was pretty scary, forget the summoner, I'll play that monster :D.

Ok, the first head has 1.5x str (bite evolution from quad/serpent + 1 additional bite evolution) but the remaining heads should have 1.0x str because you can take the bite evolution only 1 time per additional head or am I mistaken?

I recall that there was some dispute if a humanoid eidolon could take the bite evolution 2 times to get 1.5x str on bite attacks. Was this clarified/faq ?

Also if you are using a manufactured weapon all your natural attacks become secondary attacks so they should use only 0.5x str on damage rolls. (imho)

[Heaggles]

If you want to get your bite to do more damage think of taking the feat improved natural attack it makes the dice of the damage go up by 1, so I d8 bite would do 2d6.

[Hawktitan]

BW-Green wrote:

Hawktitan wrote:

You only apply the str 1.5x once. Though I once designed a hydra-like elidon that focused on bites but also used a 2h weapon with an arm evolution. Basically it had 1.5x str on it's bites AND weapon attacks. It was pretty scary, forget the summoner, I'll play that monster :D.

Ok, the first head has 1.5x str (bite evolution from quad/serpent + 1 additional bite evolution) but the remaining heads should have 1.0x str because you can take the bite evolution only 1 time per additional head or am I mistaken?

I recall that there was some dispute if a humanoid eidolon could take the bite evolution 2 times to get 1.5x str on bite attacks. Was this clarified/faq ?

Also if you are using a manufactured weapon all your natural attacks become secondary attacks so they should use only 0.5x str on damage rolls. (imho)

You can take bite twice for every head. It's sort of like 'bite' and 'improved bite'. Very evolution intensive, but it works. Improved bite gets around the .5x str by it simply stating that the damage is 1.5x. Any other natural attack is reduced to .5x str but that's ok.

If you are interested this was the breakdown. Level 20 Half Elf Summoner, Extra evolution feat taken at every opportunity, as a half elf favored class bonouses going to more evolution points - 36 evolution points in total. Attack and damage shown is with power attack.

Hydra (Eidolon)
Serpentine
NN Huge Outsider
Init +5; Senses darkvision; Perception +18
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 45, touch 14, flat-footed 39 (+5 Dex, -2 size, +31 natural, +1 dodge)
hp 172 (+105)
Fort +11, Ref +14, Will +9 (+4 morale bonus vs. Enchantment spells and effects)
Defensive Abilities evasion
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft., climbing (20 feet), flight (20 feet, poor)
Melee +1 Falchion +24/+19/+14 (3d6+34/18-20/x2) and
Bite (Bite) +21 (4d6+33/x2) + (1d6 cold) and
Bite (Bite) +21 (4d6+33/x2) + (1d6 cold) and
Bite (Bite) +21 (4d6+33/x2) + (1d6 cold) and
Bite (Bite) +21 (4d6+33/x2) + (1d6 cold) and
Tail slap (Tail Slap) +21 (2d6+11/x2) + (1d6 cold) and
Wing x2 (Wing Buffet) +21 x2 (1d8+11/x2) + (1d6 cold)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Special Attacks energy attacks (cold)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 38, Dex 20, Con 22, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Base Atk +15; CMB +31; CMD 47 (can't be Tripped)
Feats Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round), Dodge, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Attack (Bite [Bite]), Martial Weapon Proficiency (Falchion), Multiattack, Power Attack -4/+8, Toughness
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Climbing (20 feet) You have a Climb speed.
Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round)
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Devotion +4 (Ex) +4 Morale bonus on Will Saves vs. Enchantments.
Energy Attacks (Cold) (Ex) Your natural attacks deal 1d6 additional energy damage.
Evasion (Ex) No damage on successful reflex save.
Flight (20 feet, Poor) You can fly!
Tail (Ex) Tail grants +2 Acrobatics checks for balance.

Evolution Breakdown
--------------------
(Base Form) Climb
(Base Form) Tail
(Base Form) Tail Slap
(Base Form) Bite (1)
(Base Form) Reach (Bite)
2 - Head
2 - Head
2 - Head
1 - Bite (2)
1 - Bite (3)
1 - Bite (4)
1 - Improved Bite (1)
1 - Improved Bite (2)
1 - Improved Bite (3)
1 - Improved Bite (4)
1 - Improved Damage (Bite)
2 - Energy Attacks (Cold)
2 - Limbs (Arms)
4 - Large Size
6 - Huge Size
2 - Flight
1 - Wing Buffet
1 - Improved Natural Armor
1 - Improved Natural Armor
1 - Improved Natural Armor
1 - Improved Natural Armor
1 - Improved Natural Armor