Familiars and Hellmouth Lash spell


Rules Questions


Greetings all!

While this spell is normally for Tieflings my GM has ruled it is ok for me to use. I have not used it yet but my plan is to put cast this on my familiar (a slightly beefed up great horned owl).

According to the rules as I believe Im reading them I.. "may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast).

Question 1: With that said if I got this right I've got my little buddy hitting for 5d8 as many times a round at my base with touch attacks doing elemental damage correct? Liking that so far.

Question 2: I see no saving throw but this makes sense as its an external change (such as a conjuration attack) but surprised on spell resists. These aren't listed so... no resists?

Question 3: The spell mentions "While the spell is in effect, you cannot speak, cast spells requiring verbal components, or activate items requiring command words". This would make sense if it was on the caster but since familiar share spell option puts the origin of the spell on the familiar doesn't this apply to him instead. After all its his tongue thats attacking and in motions?

Question 4 (I swear its the last one): Is the damage in the spell subject to maximizing or empowering if cast with the feat in question?

Thanks in advance for the feedback guys.


Grayfeather wrote:
Question 1: With that said if I got this right I've got my little buddy hitting for 5d8 as many times a round at my base with touch attacks doing elemental damage correct?

Hellmouth Lash

If your caster level is 10, then for 10 rounds your owl can make a ranged touch attack as a standard action, which provokes, at a target up to 15' away and deals 5d8 energy damage each time it hits.

Grayfeather wrote:
Question 2: I see no saving throw but this makes sense as its an external change (such as a conjuration attack) but surprised on spell resists. These aren't listed so... no resists?

No saving throw or SR is listed. Energy resistance will apply, as it deals energy damage.

Grayfeather wrote:
Question 3: The spell mentions "While the spell is in effect, you cannot speak, cast spells requiring verbal components, or activate items requiring command words". This would make sense if it was on the caster but since familiar share spell option puts the origin of the spell on the familiar doesn't this apply to him instead. After all its his tongue thats attacking and in motions?

Yes, "You" in this instance refers to the creature under the effects of the spell (your owl).

Grayfeather wrote:
Question 4 (I swear its the last one): Is the damage in the spell subject to maximizing or empowering if cast with the feat in question?

I think so. The 1d8/2CL seems like a variable, numeric effect to me.


Grick wrote:
Grayfeather wrote:
Question 1: With that said if I got this right I've got my little buddy hitting for 5d8 as many times a round at my base with touch attacks doing elemental damage correct?

Hellmouth Lash

If your caster level is 10, then for 10 rounds your owl can make a ranged touch attack as a standard action, which provokes, at a target up to 15' away and deals 5d8 energy damage each time it hits.

Grayfeather wrote:
Question 2: I see no saving throw but this makes sense as its an external change (such as a conjuration attack) but surprised on spell resists. These aren't listed so... no resists?

No saving throw or SR is listed. Energy resistance will apply, as it deals energy damage.

Grayfeather wrote:
Question 3: The spell mentions "While the spell is in effect, you cannot speak, cast spells requiring verbal components, or activate items requiring command words". This would make sense if it was on the caster but since familiar share spell option puts the origin of the spell on the familiar doesn't this apply to him instead. After all its his tongue thats attacking and in motions?

Yes, "You" in this instance refers to the creature under the effects of the spell (your owl).

Grayfeather wrote:
Question 4 (I swear its the last one): Is the damage in the spell subject to maximizing or empowering if cast with the feat in question?

I think so. The 1d8/2CL seems like a variable, numeric effect to me.

Thanks for the input Grick. I thought i had it right. One more question (ok I lied about last one), if I use something like Transformation that overrides my BAB does this apply then to my familiars BAB/number of attacks per round? Wondering how I can pump my familair's attacks per round up for a glass cannon when needed.


Grayfeather wrote:
if I use something like Transformation that overrides my BAB does this apply then to my familiars BAB/number of attacks per round?

Transformation: "Your base attack bonus equals your character level (which may give you multiple attacks)."

Familiar Attacks: "Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes."

I think it would apply. Transformation doesn't grant you a bonus to your BAB (which could be considered not 'from your classes') but instead it specifically changes your entire BAB, so I think that change would be reflected on your familiar.

Dark Archive

Just remember, based upon the rules of casting spells that use touch, on a familiar, that the spell fizzles when you the caster casts anything else.


Sin of Asmodeus wrote:
Just remember, based upon the rules of casting spells that use touch, on a familiar, that the spell fizzles when you the caster casts anything else.

That's part of holding the charge. Once the spell has discharged (as soon as you touch the familiar) any touch-relevant parts no longer apply.

Mage Armor is a touch spell, but the effect doesn't stop once you cast another spell, because you're not holding the charge, you discharged it as soon as you touched your target.


Grick wrote:
Sin of Asmodeus wrote:
Just remember, based upon the rules of casting spells that use touch, on a familiar, that the spell fizzles when you the caster casts anything else.

That's part of holding the charge. Once the spell has discharged (as soon as you touch the familiar) any touch-relevant parts no longer apply.

Mage Armor is a touch spell, but the effect doesn't stop once you cast another spell, because you're not holding the charge, you discharged it as soon as you touched your target.

What about Chill Touch or spells like it, that allow multiple attacks w/a single casting? If I cast this, hand it off to my familiar, and then send it in to make some touch attacks, can I still whip off fireballs?


Mark Hoover wrote:
What about Chill Touch or spells like it, that allow multiple attacks w/a single casting? If I cast this, hand it off to my familiar, and then send it in to make some touch attacks, can I still whip off fireballs?

Share Spells: "The wizard may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast)."

Chill Touch does not have a target of "You" nor is it unable to affect magical beasts, so it does not function with Share Spells.

Deliver Touch Spells (Su): "If the master is 3rd level or higher, a familiar can deliver touch spells for him. If the master and the familiar are in contact at the time the master casts a touch spell, he can designate his familiar as the “toucher.” The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the master would. As usual, if the master casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates."

So no, if you cast again before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates.

But wait!

James Jacobs has said that spells like that stop functioning as touch spells after the first successful attack. This means (among a host of other possibly unintended consequences) that if you give your familiar a chill touch spell of CL 2+ then after the first touch, you are no longer holding the charge, but instead just have a special touch attack ability, so feel free to cast all you like.

There's a FAQ request post for that here if you'd like to see an official response.


Grick wrote:
Mark Hoover wrote:
What about Chill Touch or spells like it, that allow multiple attacks w/a single casting? If I cast this, hand it off to my familiar, and then send it in to make some touch attacks, can I still whip off fireballs?

Share Spells: "The wizard may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast)."

Chill Touch does not have a target of "You" nor is it unable to affect magical beasts, so it does not function with Share Spells.

Deliver Touch Spells (Su): "If the master is 3rd level or higher, a familiar can deliver touch spells for him. If the master and the familiar are in contact at the time the master casts a touch spell, he can designate his familiar as the “toucher.” The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the master would. As usual, if the master casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates."

So no, if you cast again before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates.

But wait!

James Jacobs has said that spells like that stop functioning as touch spells after the first successful attack. This means (among a host of other possibly unintended consequences) that if you give your familiar a chill touch spell of CL 2+ then after the first touch, you are no longer holding the charge, but instead just have a special touch attack ability, so feel free to cast all you like.

There's a FAQ request post for that...

Wow, well explained Grick. That makes sense now.


What was that whole middle part...


Mark Hoover wrote:
What was that whole middle part...

It would be easier to clarify if you could mention exactly what it is you're asking about.

Assuming you're replying to me, and since I wrote seven paragraphs, I'll also assume you're asking about "So no, if you cast again before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates."

What that means is, if you use Deliver Touch Spells (Su) to cast, say, touch of fatigue, and designate your familiar as the "toucher", and your familiar doesn't deliver the spell that turn and holds the charge, and then you cast another spell, the touch of fatigue will dissipate.

If you go strictly by the book (ignoring James' clarification), and cast chill touch (at CL 2+) in place of touch of fatigue, then your familiar can't discharge the spell in one round and has to hold the charge. Since you/he are now holding the charge, if you cast another spell, the held charge will dissipate.


Sorry Grick; my last comment was ill-used sarcasm considering the static medium of posting on a forum. I thought I understood James' clarification to mean that if I cast chill touch at a high enough level to give my familiar a second touch attack, then once it uses the first attack I can cast another spell. So, by way of example:

I'm a 6th level wizard with a goat familiar. As my party is opening a door in a dungeon, when the GM asks me my action that round, I announce I'm casting Chill Touch, designating Goaty as the toucher, and having the familiar hold its initiative until a target presents itself.

Round 1 (door opens & I've cast the spell) a pair of medium earth elementals animate as the party moves into the room; my goat w/it's held initiative interrupts their first attack on the party with a full round action to Charge, suffering a -2 to AC and getting a +1 to attack. As part of the action he will add the chill touch into his attack. For the sake of argument he hits and delivers a couple pts of cold damage.

Round 2 if I understand James' clarification I can now have Goaty continue to head butt the elemental, using up another round of touch attacks with Chill Touch while I then lob a magic missile barrage. Or do I have that wrong and, once I cast magic missile the goat's remaining rounds of Chill Touch dissipate?


Mark Hoover wrote:
I thought I understood James' clarification to mean that if I cast chill touch at a high enough level to give my familiar a second touch attack, then once it uses the first attack I can cast another spell.

Yes, this is the case. This means you could wake up one morning, cast your CL 6 chill touch on the goat, have the goat bite a bug or something (thus discharging one of your/his touches) and converting the spell into a special ability. From then on until he succeeds at five more touch attacks (or natural attacks in which he chooses to deliver the spell) he will have chill touch active. You could then repeat the process with frostbite, doing the same thing, and have both spells active (minus one touch from each) forever/until used, with no risk of accidental discharge.

Here comes some pointless nitpicking.

Mark Hoover wrote:

I announce I'm casting Chill Touch, designating Goaty as the toucher, and having the familiar hold its initiative until a target presents itself.

Round 1 (door opens & I've cast the spell) a pair of medium earth elementals animate as the party moves into the room; my goat w/it's held initiative interrupts their first attack on the party with a full round action to Charge

In order to interrupt the action it needs to be a Ready, not a Delay. Ready can only be a standard action (or move/swift/free), not full-round.

In order to charge, he must delay, which doesn't interrupt whatever is happening with the door, it would just slide into init after the door opener finishes it's turn.


Thanks G-town; I'll let you get back to eating brains or whatever aberrations do.

Dark Archive

My reply was badly worded, Gricks was much better worded.
I often use Calcific touch with my familiar, and cast after he touches someone with it.

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