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So I am in the process of building a world. i have taken many of the races and changed how they operate in the world, i.e. the Dwarven clans have lost their mountain citadels and have been forced to the Western Coast where they have established a new meritorious nation. But I am having issues with my Elves. Here is my description for the Race:
Elves- Elves are frightful at first glance, their strange bodies, covered in leathers and tribal scars mark them as very different from the civilized nations from Khalendor. They hail from the jungle continent of Mysternal and are considered by most to be primitives. Only recently discovered by the Wave Lords in their various trade routes, the elves have not had many chances to adapt to Khalendorish customs and technology yet. Worshiping the Trickster God, they live off the land and organize themselves into tribes with the matriarch of the family ruling with absolute control. The elves that are found in the many cities of Khalendor are often outcasts from their tribes and lend their hunting and survival skills to mercenary and pirate crews.
As I see it the elves have never had an empire or any form of advanced civilization beyond tribal, they are also stuck in the bronze age with obsidian weapons as the challenge weapon that only the bravest warriors ever seek for. I want to reflect this in the rules regarding elves and I had the idea of giving them proficiency with all bronze age weapons instead of what their classes would normally gain for weapons and armor proficiencies. I would offer a trait for players to take the normal proficiencies for the classes if they chose do so. Does this seem balanced or does it put such as restriction on elves that nobody would want to play them?
Another aspect is that the elves have not developed a formulaic system of magic and was thinking of forcing all elven magic users of using the Words of Power as described in Ultimate Magic.
Any advice would be nice.
Sounds like Neanderthals that look like elves. Perhaps in the elvish evolution, they evolved in a different direction. Savage elves would have more wisdom, for druidism and tribal religion. As a long lived, ancient race, they may have more rituals available to them. They may have oral tradition casters as well.
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Automatic proficiency in all bronze weapons can be rather easily abused. Blunt weapons that rely on impact aren't greatly hindered by being made of bronze. You'd likely end up with a large group of elves using Earthbreakers. Id say limit their starting gear to reflect their primitive upbringing. Maybe change stats to +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 con (or maybe int)
-2 int might be better than -2 con, if they are supposed to be toughened by the dangerous and likely unhygenic life?
Interesting take on elves, its nice too see them out of their finespun self, just one question to see if I understand correctly. In your world elves can not be arcane spellcasters nor advanced fighters? Do you plan to give them a boost in primal/natural classes like the barbarian or the druid? If you where a player in your world and where to play an elf which is the "strongest" build you would make?
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Tribal doesn't fit the stat modifiers. Anything with a bonus to int should be civilized.
I would like to hear your reasoning as to why, as i see it wisdom implies civilization not intelligence. The idea of a social contract which civilization is based on tends to rely of common sense and values, most of which come from wisdom. Though, it is an interesting idea.
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Interesting take on elves, its nice too see them out of their finespun self, just one question to see if I understand correctly. In your world elves can not be arcane spellcasters nor advanced fighters? Do you plan to give them a boost in primal/natural classes like the barbarian or the druid? If you where a player in your world and where to play an elf which is the "strongest" build you would make?
Well elves can be arcane spell casters but rather than rely on a codified uniform system of magic, they would use Words of Power from Ultimate magic. and Barbarians and Druids would probably be a good focus of the elves, with very few going towards fighter, but it would still be a possibility. In addition, not all elves are from the wilderness, but most are, those that are not would most likely be exiles or slaves taken by early explores of their new continent.
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Bows would still be an appropriate weapon.
Keep in mind that "Bronze age weapons" doesn't mean what you seem to think it does. You're talking you're classic Sumerian, Egyptian, all the way up to early Roman when you're talking Bronze. Bronze is an ally after all, and that's fairly sophisticatged metallurgy.
I would suggest that you take your quees from Dragonlance and other simmilar sources and adjust your elves this way.
Make the Stat Modifiers +2 Wisdom and Dexterity, -2 to Charisma. These elves are standoffish and not really big on the relate well with others gig. Give them bonuses with spear perhaps, but bows would still fit. Certain alternative traits would also fit as well. "Silent Hunter", "Woodcraft", would be particurlarly appropriate.
I was tending to focus on Dragonlance, specifically the Kagonesti for inspiration. I was loathe to mess with their stats but now that it has been brought up numerous time, the idea of making them +2 Dex, +2 Intel, -2 Cha is a possibility that would work to reflect their savagery turned to an 11.
Change the stat modifiers to fit the fluff...
+2 to Dex +2 to Wis maybe -2 to cha
-Replace "elf weapon trait" with your bronze age weapons kit (I'd add blowgun)
-Maybe they get a bonus +2 to perception and survival
-Replace their spell fluff with something more primal since it equals a feat anyway maybe they all get improved initiative?
I like your elves might steal them as a jungle subrace in my world...
Ok wow just noticed someone had a near identical suggestion...
In my developing campaign world, I broke elves up into different clans that were devoted to different animal, gaining different proficiencies and sta mods.
These guys sound like they have a bonus to constitution, what with being covered in tribal scars.
Change the stat modifiers to fit the fluff...
+2 to Dex +2 to Wis maybe -2 to cha
-Replace "elf weapon trait" with your bronze age weapons kit (I'd add blowgun)
-Maybe they get a bonus +2 to perception and survival
-Replace their spell fluff with something more primal since it equals a feat anyway maybe they all get improved initiative?I like your elves might steal them as a jungle subrace in my world...
Ok wow just noticed someone had a near identical suggestion...
You beat me to the blowgun, so I'm seconding the motion.
Primitive people had Village Elders, who were wise enough to survive. Some of the greatest chieftains were born wise.
I have three groups - two 'known' (not well), and one 'unknown' (because usually when you meet them, you never meet anyone else).
The first are the Maeladrin - the culture lifted from Moorcock's Melniboné, right down to their having 'ruled the world' just two centuries ago (typical RPG trope of the 'new races' just having come into their own). The name is obviously lifted from the 4e term 'Eladrin'. Those are my 'High Elves' (after a fashion). I've also stolen a page from FR's Shades (Netheril) - they all have a shadow template (they look sickly with grayish skin and sunken eyes).
The second are the secretive wood elves - The Olvaci. They rarely have anything to do with anyone else (sort of like the elves of Mirkwood, but even worse). Their forest home is filled with unbelievably huge flora - the trees would dwarf RW Redwoods. They are similar in some ways to the Na'vi of Avatar (but no blue skin or giant-size - I had my concept years before that film came around). So thick is the forest canopy that very little light ever reaches them. They briefly arrived on the scene to 'save the day' during the Great War (a 'Battle of Five Armies' thing that ended Maeladrin rule, but more like a 'world war' - even other continents were involved). They have an embassy in the main campaign city (as does everyone who participated), but they are never seen, and no-one even knows if the embassy (which is like an enclosed park) is even occupied anymore.
The third are the Kraven, and are all but unknown. Those are my 'drow', but very different from D&D drow. They are weaklings and cowards - much more like PF goblins in attitude and tactics. They are also much smaller then the other two (Maeladrin can grow taller then humans), and have milky-white, almost translucent skin. Think an amalgam of drow and gibberlings, but with the goblin personality. They are the 'boogyman' of my world - they sneak out of their caves at night and steal away children to eat (and the occasional weak or drunk adult).
None of them can tolerate full daylight. None of them will accept any relationship to each other (they consider themselves all completely separate races). I suppose if I ever had a Kraven run into a Maeladrin I might do a 'god worship' thing with that. They are also not available as PCs - they are too different and alien. No-one really ever sees them, and there are too many 'hard feelings' leftover from when the Maeladrin lorded it over everyone. Half-Elves are available as PCs, but they are extremely rare, and considered the product of 'rape'. The ones from Maeladrin background are the children of sex slaves, and any from the mainland would be considered rape by the human on Olvaci (and as I said, unheard of, since Olvaci shun humanity and think of them as little better then animals). A Maeladrin half-elf would not be trusted at all, and an Olvaci one would be a wonder... and probably hunted by the Olvaci as an abomination. Their are no (known) Kraven half-elves - people get eaten by them.
Thats what I did with the Elves in my homebrew world. None of them are native, either - they are the descendents of slaves brought to the world by the 'old ones' (cthulhu-esque types based on all the D&D aberration races). However, the Maeladrin claim it was the other way-around, and there are no more 'old ones' to argue the point (or so everyone thinks).
Tribal doesn't fit the stat modifiers. Anything with a bonus to int should be civilized.I would like to hear your reasoning as to why, as i see it wisdom implies civilization not intelligence. The idea of a social contract which civilization is based on tends to rely of common sense and values, most of which come from wisdom. Though, it is an interesting idea.
Look at the skills those two stats modify.
Int modifies Knowledges (almost all of which represent a book-learning level of skill), Linguistics, Appraise (recognizing market, not practical, value of an item), Spellcraft (the design and identification of magical spells), and Craft. Of the four areas, only Craft is important to a primitive society, and then only for making simple easy- to-use items. Nets, spears, simple animal snares, and basic shelter and clothing do not require high skill checks to make.
Wisdom, on the other hand, affects Heal, Perception, Profession, Sense Motive, and Survival. While Profession and Sense Motive might not be as important to an isolated culture (money being a low priority and few other cultures that they come into contact with), the other three skills are absolutely needed in a primitive culture. They must be good at foraging, spotting danger, and not dying.
While I agree that a codified philosophy of common wisdom (such as Cartesian rationalism or the tenets of the major religions) is a hallmark of an advanced society, those codes are assembled and then disseminated to the masses from a scholarly perspective. Without the high priority on intellectual pursuits and scholarly journalism during the Golden Age of Athens, the teachings of Socrates, Plato, Diogenes, Aristophanes, and the others might not have survived until the Romans rediscovered them. It took men of high Intelligence and scholarly training to codify what most took as common sense into a context that could be spread beyond the instinctive.
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I have edited the Race further to reflect new insights made by the comments.
With all of these comment I have put together a racial description for them.
• Ability Score Racial Traits: Elves are nimble, both in body and mind, but they lack many of the common social graces. They gain +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom and -2 Charisma.
• Size: Elves are Medium creatures and thus receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Type: Elves are Humanoids with the elf subtype.
• Base Speed: Elves have a base speed of 30 feet.
• Xenophobic: Isolationist elves despise non-elven humanoids. They speak only Elven and and only gain half of their allotted bonus languages from possessing a high Intelligence score. In addition, they learn only one language per 2 ranks of Linguistics they possess. However, their untrusting nature gives them a +1 bonus against mind-affecting effects, except for fear affects.
• Elven Immunities: Elves are immune to magic sleep effects and gain a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells and effects.
• Weapon Familiarity: Elves are proficient with longbows (including composite longbows), shortbows (including composite shortbows), Blow Guns, Stone Age and Bronze Age weapons. Elves are not familiar with Martial Weapons and take a -2 on attack rolls until they become familiar with new weapons.
• Low-Light Vision: Elves can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.
• Woodcraft: Elves know the deep secrets of the wild like no others, especially secrets of the forests. Elves with this racial trait gain a +1 racial bonus on Knowledge (nature) and Survival checks. In forest terrain, these bonuses improve to +2.
• Fleet-Footed: While all elves are naturally lithe and agile, some also are naturally speedy and have a strong desire to rush into situations rather than worrying about looking ahead. Elves with this racial trait receive Run as a bonus feat and a +2 racial bonus on initiative checks.
Comments?
Comments?
Sweet, I'd roll up a druid or ranger with that template in a heartbeat
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The only potential issue I see is, with the change to the stat bonuses, you're pushing elves from arcane magic towards divine. Rangers will be nice and fit quite well as would Druids. I'm not sure if elves being a prime choice for clerics fits your conception of them.
Kazzan has the right idea for how I envision the Elves. thejeff, your raise a good point in how they might steer toward clerics but that is part of what makes my vision of elves differently, I view elves not as inherently magical but rather much more spiritual.
So a more shamanistic approach to magic?
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like your elves. reminds me of larger-sized ElfQuest elves minus the tats...
um, maybe if you want to incorporate arcane magic, you could add Witch Doctor as Wisdom-based re-flavored Sorcerer?
or maybe look at what this guy is cookin up for inspiration.
I strongly disagree that Int races should be more civilised! Less technologically advanced and organised civilisations are not composed of less intelligent people.
That's what Victorians used to think, but it turns out they were ignorant, closed-minded and smug.
It may not be hatred, but it's still racism. Don't be elf racist. Elves will cry.
I strongly disagree that Int races should be more civilized! Less technologically advanced and organized civilizations are not composed of less intelligent people.
That's what Victorians used to think, but it turns out they were ignorant, closed-minded and smug.
It may not be hatred, but it's still racism. Don't be elf racist. Elves will cry.
Its a game not RL, nothing here says the more primal elves this guy wants for his world are dumb. Just because we're changing the bonus from Int to Wis means we're racist, personally I made that change because wisdom effect survival and perception. In a dangerously wild environment you'd adapt (the wise would live on to produce wiser children.)
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Its a game not RL, nothing here says the more primal elves this guy wants for his world are dumb. Just because we're changing the bonus from Int to Wis means we're racist, personally I made that change because wisdom effect survival and perception. In a dangerously wild environment you'd adapt (the wise would live on to produce wiser children.)I strongly disagree that Int races should be more civilized! Less technologically advanced and organized civilizations are not composed of less intelligent people.
That's what Victorians used to think, but it turns out they were ignorant, closed-minded and smug.
It may not be hatred, but it's still racism. Don't be elf racist. Elves will cry.
Kinda wish I could upvote this. But yes this is what I was thinking, As I see it, Wisdom reflects social cohesion, adaptability, and simple common sense for a group of people. We may not understand their common sense, but any group living in a dangerous area would quickly create rules that would disseminate throughout their society by being passed onto the next generation. Thus they would come of value Wisdom more than intelligence.
Also i am looking at the elves to be more Druidic, Shamanistic type of casters rather than flashy spells like an arcane caster.
Contributor
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Very cool flavor here -- it really reminds me of the elves from the Dragon Age world (which is a personal favorite). In DA, the setting goes a little further in ostracizing urban elves by actually putting them in elf-only slums, which are like third-world societies unto themselves. Society among wild elves and urban elves is very, very different, which I think follows what you're going for in your world.
On that note, have you thought about possibly coming up with some alternate racial traits for your urban-elf PCs? Just a thought.
As far as the racial traits you passed along, my only thought is that I'm not sure about the xenophobic trait. Limiting languages like that is not something I'd want to deal with as a PC, and I don't think the +1 against mind-affecting effects makes the penalties to learning languages worth it. Also keep in mind that PC characters are often extraordinary members of their races -- so even if your fluff states that elves typically reject outsiders, you don't have to mechanically limit elf PCs' languages just to fit that concept.
Anyway, it's great to see folks taking an outside approach to some of the iconic fantasy races. It's definitely something that I think should be done more often, so I hope all this helps!
Its a game not RL, nothing here says the more primal elves this guy wants for his world are dumb. Just because we're changing the bonus from Int to Wis means we're racist, personally I made that change because wisdom effect survival and perception. In a dangerously wild environment you'd adapt (the wise would live on to produce wiser children.)I strongly disagree that Int races should be more civilized! Less technologically advanced and organized civilizations are not composed of less intelligent people.
That's what Victorians used to think, but it turns out they were ignorant, closed-minded and smug.
It may not be hatred, but it's still racism. Don't be elf racist. Elves will cry.
Don't worry, I'm not accusing anybody of racism any more than I think elves will cry about this thread.
My real point was simply lower tech and infrastructure =/= lower intelligence.
I am well aware that this is just a game.
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@Motuum
Intellegence in Pathfinder =/= How we interpret Intellegence in Real Life
Are these folk Intellegent?
-Joe Grifter, uses fast talking and witty tricks of speech and human psychology to generate an income from the world's "fish."
In RL yes in PF that guy has a high Cha maybe a good wis could have a crap int and do what he does.
-A detective walking thru a crime scene notices various specific details that point to the fact that the body before him was stabbed in a struggle in the kitchen (bloodspatter, defensive wounds) then dragged into the kitchen (blood trail) and that the person was killed in the early afternoon yesterday (condidtion of corpse and flies ect.)
In RL that guy sure is smart, in PF he has high wis and perception maybe a little knowledge healing or NAture and can still sport a low int.
Just sayin' while I agree with you that primative does not mean moronic, the way we view intellegence in RL has no bearing on an abstact roleplaying system.
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My updated version of the elves.
Standard Racial Traits
• Ability Score Racial Traits: Elves are nimble, both in body and mind, but they lack many of the
common social graces. They gain +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom and -2 Charisma.
• Size: Elves are Medium creatures and thus receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Type: Elves are Humanoids with the elf subtype.
• Base Speed: Elves have a base speed of 30 feet.
• Languages: Elves speak Elven. Elves with high Intelligence can take the following bonus languages:
Sylvan, Common, Auran, Draconic, Teant, and Gnoll.
• Elven Immunities: Elves are immune to magic sleep effects and gain a +2 racial saving throw bonus
against enchantment spells and effects.
• Weapon Familiarity: Elves are proficient with longbows (including composite longbows),
shortbows (including composite shortbows), Blow Guns, Stone Age and Bronze Age weapons. Elves
are not familiar with Martial Weapons and take a -2 on attack rolls until they become familiar with
new weapons.
• Low-Light Vision: Elves can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.
• Woodcraft: Elves know the deep secrets of the wild like no others, especially secrets of the forests.
Elves with this racial trait gain a +1 racial bonus on Knowledge (nature) and Survival checks. In forest
terrain, these bonuses improve to +2.
• Fleet-Footed: While all elves are naturally lithe and agile, some also are naturally speedy and have
a strong desire to rush into situations rather than worrying about looking ahead. Elves with this
racial trait receive Run as a bonus feat and a +2 racial bonus on initiative checks.
Traits:
Wanderer - Elves who have left their forested homeland often pick the nuances of the outside world. Gain common as a racial Language with Gnoll, Gnome, Orc, Dwarven, and elven for those with high intelligence. Gain familiarity with weapons as normal. replaces woodcraft, Elven Languages, Weapon Familiarity.
Spirit of the Waters: Some elves have adapted to life in tune with the sea. They gain a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks, can always take 10 while swimming. They are proficient with longspear, trident, and net. This racial trait replaces woodcraft and weapon familiarity.
Any other suggestions?
Perhaps an option to swap out Fleet footed with Woodland stride- for the rare version of your elves that won't be ranger or druid...
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Perhaps an option to swap out Fleet footed with Woodland stride- for the rare version of your elves that won't be ranger or druid...
I looked at it but since woodland stride is a class ability, I am hesitant to do. I don't like having racial traits or abilities be a class ability as well, though I admit there is some overlap.
@Motuum
Intellegence in Pathfinder =/= How we interpret Intellegence in Real Life
Are these folk Intellegent?
-Joe Grifter, uses fast talking and witty tricks of speech and human psychology to generate an income from the world's "fish."
In RL yes in PF that guy has a high Cha maybe a good wis could have a crap int and do what he does.
-A detective walking thru a crime scene notices various specific details that point to the fact that the body before him was stabbed in a struggle in the kitchen (bloodspatter, defensive wounds) then dragged into the kitchen (blood trail) and that the person was killed in the early afternoon yesterday (condidtion of corpse and flies ect.)
In RL that guy sure is smart, in PF he has high wis and perception maybe a little knowledge healing or NAture and can still sport a low int.Just sayin' while I agree with you that primative alone does not mean moronic, the way we view intellegence in RL has no bearing on an abstact roleplaying system.
Sorry, I don't agree. I believe primitive people have roughly the same potential and natural aptitude as modern westerners in all areas of mental and social prowess, however you divide them up and whatever you call them. They just have less to work with and so less chance to show their true capabilities.
That isn't to say these elves ought not to be dumber or less charismatic, just that being primitive alone isn't a very good reason for such penalties.
Xak, that looks good, but why are they unfamiliar with martial weapons? You realise that makes it easier for them to pick up a crossbow than a hammer, right?
@Mortuum
Yar I agree primative doesn't mean less intelligent, just because we're swapping bonuses here doesn't make an elf dumb... Your missing my point and in all likelyhood I'm missing yours so lets switch to melee weapons because apparently we both suck at archery...
It just means that for a PC elf to be a wizard will require a whole lot of backstory.
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Xak, that looks good, but why are they unfamiliar with martial weapons? You realise that makes it easier for them to pick up a crossbow than a hammer, right?
The reason that i wanted to make them unfamiliar with martial weapons is that they would have never used them. I have always had an issue with the classes being experienced with every type of martial weapon, but I did not want to penalize them too much by requiring martial weapons to have a feat to do so or to require exotic weapon proficiency for them to use these new and very unfamiliar weapons. An example of this would be a character requiring familiarity with Eastern weapons in UC, not all characters, especially those who probably have never seen some of the strange weapons would have learn how to use them, but they already have the fundamentals of combat down.
In my experience most players find a weapon they enjoy using and fits their character and stick with, thus I thought that by having a character use the weapon in battle or devote a small amount of time training with it, it would negate the -2 and be used as normal.
I know it makes it easier for them to use a crossbow, but as i see them, they would know simple weapons much more that martial and with their familiarity with long and short bows, to me it made more sense.
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It just means that for a PC elf to be a wizard will require a whole lot of backstory.
This is how I see. I don't see the Elves as non-intelligent, but I don't see them having a bonus to intelligence, which also impacts wizards. This does not mean that there are no Elf wizards, just that they do get a natural bonus to being one.
@ XakTatsonis - everything you've done and posted here has made sense and definately earned you some respect in my book. If you ever end up in western NY PM me we could totally game.