Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
From Tab-Targeting : A Question For Ryan and Lee:
... getting "you must have a target selected" ruin everything while you try and frantically tab or click onto the goblin running towards you.
My dad has a real problem with this. He'll have two or three adds that he's trying to deal with, and he's trying to activate his attacks, but he's got an old corpse targeted or something so none of his attacks are actually doing anything.
I think the solution to this is:
1. Auto-Target option. Default disabled. If enabled, automatically selects the appropriate target most directly in your line of sight when you activate an ability. (This is an MMO standard at this point.)
2. Auto-Target Lock option. Default enabled. If enabled, requires the player to manually re-target, or manually clear their target. If disabled, and the Auto-Target option is enabled, allows the Auto-Target system to re-select a new target even while another target is selected.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Star Trek online has a similar hybrid system where you can aim, or you can tab target essentially with lock ons. It works reasonably well. I think something in the spirit of that system could work fine, of course most combat in that game is ranged, so a similar system would be different for PFO.
But I'm always a fan of more options to play without advantages/disadvantages to one over the other.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd like to see the player not automatically be fed a target when they've been hit.
Find the damn target yourself.
So, you're not proposing a UI feature that will help you play. You're actually proposing a feature that will make it more difficult for other people to play. Gotcha. I don't think that's very cool, though.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'd rather bash and weave my way through a group than be locked onto a single target, but if someone else wants to be locked on while I swing at lots of stuff, I don't mind. It does make a difference to mechanics having a hybrid, but it works ok in sto, so while its not my preference, I could deal with it without getting bored to death.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Star Trek online has a similar hybrid system where you can aim, or you can tab target essentially with lock ons. It works reasonably well. I think something in the spirit of that system could work fine, of course most combat in that game is ranged, so a similar system would be different for PFO.
But I'm always a fan of more options to play without advantages/disadvantages to one over the other.
Stop feeding me crappy theme-parks with cool combat systems to try. It only makes me more and more impatient to see how mind-blowingly awesome PFO will be.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I would like to add two other targets:
1. Friendly Target
2. Target of Friendly Target.
Helps both support, and group targeting. Support targets their main targets, and damage targets the captain.
It's nice for the semi-support to be able to keep on an offensive target while supporting their team.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I would like to add two other targets:
1. Friendly Target
2. Target of Friendly Target.Helps both support, and group targeting. Support targets their main targets, and damage targets the captain.
It's nice for the semi-support to be able to keep on an offensive target while supporting their team.
I'm for number 1, but not number 2. Number 2 is referred to as "target assist" or similar terms. It makes it so in combat you only have to have everyone target the tank (or whatever) and reduces the need to communicate and coordinate in combat.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'm not sure that coordinating combat by telling people explicitly which mobs to click on (or tab to) and then forcing them to do that without assistance really qualifies as "meaningful human interaction".
Think about it in PFRPG terms. The group leader says "Kill the Goblin Shaman!" Each other player says "Okay, I'm going to attack the Goblin Shaman". There simply doesn't need to be a mini-game to get the correct mob targeted.
Maximizing meaningful human interaction would mean getting the most people to be able to participate in your group activities. Yes, even the old guy (my Dad) who can't type and has trouble getting on the right mob even with an assist key.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Stop feeding me crappy theme-parks with cool combat systems to try. It only makes me more and more impatient to see how mind-blowingly awesome PFO will be.Star Trek online has a similar hybrid system where you can aim, or you can tab target essentially with lock ons. It works reasonably well. I think something in the spirit of that system could work fine, of course most combat in that game is ranged, so a similar system would be different for PFO.
But I'm always a fan of more options to play without advantages/disadvantages to one over the other.
Sto is actually surprisingly good in how open it is. There's a theme park storyline, but there's lots of other stuff too that's more open ended. And the ship combat is pretty fun too, if target based (which actually makes sense, as a tactical computer does lock onto targets)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Please, please, please...no "/assist"!!
Yes, it makes it 'easier' to play with a group. So easy, in fact, that a PC could read a book as someone else just finds targets while the PC mindless pushes ability sequences like "1, 2, 3, 1, 4, 2, 1, 5, 1, 3..." in sequence. Just put in /follow and people will run several toons at once with some simple keyboard macros.
It makes for mindlessly repetitive PvP play too. Just pick a 'leader', target through them, and press 'burn' to focus-fire kill as they switch from target to target. As someone stated in another thread so eloquently "PvP just becomes waiting your turn to die."
Healers and casters, in particular, are disproportionally hurt by such a system, as only one person needs to actually bother to pay attention to the combat enough to decide who to target. Instead, require people to actually play the game themselves.
If it were me, I'd make marking targets in combat a skill on the tactics leadership tree (and not an really early one, either.) Increasing skill levels should increase the number of targets that can be marked and the ability to mark creatures with different symbols.
But never put in "/assist", it just removes all need for tactical leadership other than 'target me and press attack!'
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
There simply doesn't need to be a mini-game to get the correct mob targeted.
That's not a 'mini-game', that is the tactical game!
Auto-target is the lamest form of 'easy mode' you can make. You might as well just eliminate the other players and let each person have their own automated bunch of drones.
Assist targeting is mechanically automated team-work.
I'm sick to death of games that remove all the skill, and I'm not talking about 'twitch' skills here either. I'm talking about making smart choices, individually. Not just pressing number keys when abilities come off cool-down. I can play WOW/RIFT/GW2/etc/etc/etc if I wanted to do that.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'm for number 1, but not number 2. Number 2 is referred to as "target assist" or similar terms. It makes it so in combat you only have to have everyone target the tank (or whatever) and reduces the need to communicate and coordinate in combat.I would like to add two other targets:
1. Friendly Target
2. Target of Friendly Target.Helps both support, and group targeting. Support targets their main targets, and damage targets the captain.
It's nice for the semi-support to be able to keep on an offensive target while supporting their team.
What about something like The Secret World does, where you simultaneously have an offensive target that your attacks go out to, and a defensive target that receives the benefits of your healing and buffing?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'm not sure that coordinating combat by telling people explicitly which mobs to click on (or tab to) and then forcing them to do that without assistance really qualifies as "meaningful human interaction".
I think that there is an argument to be made that the coordination of the many to one objective is definitively meaningful human interaction. So far as tactical coordination goes consider that six swords striking one foe will degrade the opposing strength faster than six swords striking six opponents. All the better if you can keep your people from striking one another in the confusion. If the other players are agreeable to focusing their actions in solidarity with a proven leader it is not Alice in Botland, after all.
Think about it in PFRPG terms. The group leader says "Kill the Goblin Shaman!" Each other player says "Okay, I'm going to attack the Goblin Shaman". There simply doesn't need to be a mini-game to get the correct mob targeted.
Yet once the goblin shaman is down you have six fighter goblins each indistinguishable from the next. Were they assigned a designation such as 'A', 'B', 'C' the player can say attack alpha and everyone knows exactly who to strike.
Maximizing meaningful human interaction would mean getting the most people to be able to participate in your group activities. Yes, even the old guy (my Dad) who can't type and has trouble getting on the right mob even with an assist key.
And so... maybe having the UI autodesignate the opponents with a simple letter all could see might be beneficial to your worthy father.
I am very glad there is anothr father who cares enough about his son to play with him.
Warms the corkles of me heart it does.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Target marking was mentioned. I think it would be very good, especially if target locking isn't going to be the main method of targeting but even if it is, if you could mark targets just for yourself. Marking for the party doesn't make much sense, unless you do it through faerie fire or glitterdust or something. Marking for yourself would just serve to assist your own memory in a possibly chaotic situation, and be a huge boon to people who get turned around and confused but really to anyone. If your group is fighting 12 kobolds and you want to keep hitting the same one, being able to put a UI marker over its head that persists with all the moving around would be great. It would be even better if you could put a variety of symbols, again just for your own organization and nobody else would see them, over different targets' heads. Not moons and stars like WoW, but maybe numbers or just different color dots, or whatever. In EVE you can lock on to multiple targets and even fire different guns at different targets simultaneously - I don't think we need that here, exactly, but just being able to keep track of things for your own benefit during a chaotic situation would be great.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Yet once the goblin shaman is down you have six fighter goblins each indistinguishable from the next.
Miniatures.
*Nihimon points at the Goblin Fighter right there*
Make the tactical game be about decisions, not the dexterity to execute those decisions.
As usual, Decius states it simply and perfectly.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
...
*Nihimon points at the Goblin Fighter right there*
...
Being raised his hand and with a gesture paused time itself. He threaded his way across the cave to peer down Nihimon's arm and beyond his finger toward a goblin indistinguishable from all others, save its positioning. Being nodded, gestured, and time renewed it course as if it had never stopped. Another goblin, sure it was about to skewer the old man with his dogslicer, was confounded as his blade whistled through empty air, and he blinked in surprize.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Being, I have no idea what you're saying.
Has any GM ever had 2 Goblin Fighter miniatures on a flip-mat and not allowed the players to simply point at the one they wanted to attack?
Obviously, the GM would want to verify that the character has Line of Sight, etc. But are you seriously suggesting that a good GM would not allow the Ranger and the Wizard to both target the same mob just by pointing at its miniature?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
What you can do in miniatures does not always map well to an MMO.
In Pathfinder Online how do you intend to point at a target meaningfully, so that Being four full paces to your right, with a faceful of screaming goblins, can reasonably expect to understand both that you are pointing, and at what?
If you are intending to use a /point emote, realize it will only go to text chat, which I am unlikely to be watching intently.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
In Pathfinder Online how do you intend to point at a target meaningfully, so that Being four full paces to your right, with a faceful of screaming goblins, can reasonably expect to understand both that you are pointing, and at what?
With "tab targeting" or with an "assist" key.
I believe human beings have significantly developed spatial awareness, and can take very direct cues just from seeing which direction a person is facing - that is, where one person's head is pointing or what his body is squared to.
But that's kind of irrelevant.
There probably won't be a typical MMO Tank in PFO, with 6 mobs beating on him and no one else.
Now, what value is required by making it difficult for a player to effectively utilize the User Interface? The easy supposition is that those who are calling for this are looking for a way to excel and rise above the rest. I don't really believe that; I think they just want it to be fun and challenging for them. I just want them to keep in mind other players who aren't as manually dexterous and not exclude them.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
If you're going to use the tabletop as an analogy, wouldn't it be turn based and you could switch targets in the next round? And you wouldn't need to cycle through all available targets to do it.
But I'm just being a pedant :p
Give me an aiming option while you tab anyway, it'll improve my performance :p my concentration tends to wander in the uninteresting tabbing method these days. It turns every ability into the same ability for me, becomes just a number in a sequence to maximize damage output. To be honest, I'll probably get bored of the game reasonably fast if the combat system is uninteresting, I'll probably stay a few months, come back every few months coz I miss everything else, remember why I stopped and stop again. Even playing guild wars 2 was pretty tedious after getting used to TERA, which held my interest longer despite being overall less interesting, because the combat opened up so many more options to play with than tab targeting, and really as long as you have tab targeting, you're significantly lowering the variability of your combat system, because if they're just flavour for preference, unless something like auto aim with lock on target has rolls to miss and aiming does not... But then if aiming is easy enough you've made tab targeting a disadvantage. Because you're limited in your targets to what you're focused on and you have a greater chance to miss.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
To add to this is the fact of tactical combat in and of itself... I hate games that allow you to go full bore on a target dropping your fireballs and lightning bolts at the enemy with no damage resulted to your party members. Unlike in the table top game, when a fireball is dropped on an enemy who takes it in the face, any of the party too close will get the same effect as well. This should be in the game for its tactical accuracy. Let the mage go first to light em up then the fighters charge in and gain the aggro with a taunt or special move peeling the aggro from the mage who can then stay in the back and properly play the burst utility they are expected to be...
but this is probably best for another board...