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Will an unarmed attack work how I am thinking? Can I use my fist if I have Improved Unarmed Strike to punch someone and get the damage bonus from sap adept and sap master? Not sure since it says using a bludgeoning weapon.... Thoughts??
Are you guys sure? Unarmed Strikes may deal bludgeoning damage, but that doesn't actually make your fists weapons. And both feats say "Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon"...
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Are you guys sure? Unarmed Strikes may deal bludgeoning damage, but that doesn't actually make your fists weapons. And both feats say "Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon"...
Unarmed Strike is a weapon, but not a manufactured weapon, or natural weapon.
If you try to run with this, then you first have to explain Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike).
Don't walk down this road.
An Unarmed Strike is a weapon. It is even on the weapons list, in the weapons section.
I stand corrected.
Carry on, please.
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Ok thank you. Now how exactly does sap master work? Lets say I am a level 6 scout/thug and I charge someone . I also have offensive defense....do I now get +6 to my AC? Or is it the normal +3 and why? Thanks again
The additional damage does not increase your base sneak attack dice, upon which is based your talents. It has been clarified by James Jacobs.
Where is this stated? It destroys some of my character builds and, frankly, I call BS as it isn't supported in the rules anywhere.
Your sneak attack dice is clearly increased and many talents are based on your sneak attack dice. Period.
EDIT: Odd, he seems to be saying the opposite here:
Your character has 3d6 sneak attack dice.
Knockout Artist adds +1 damage/sneak attack die rolled.
Sap Adept adds +2 damage/sneak attack die rolled.
Sap Master lets you roll your sneak attack dice twice.
In the case you mention above, you have a character with 3d6 sneak attack. Which means that when he attacks with these feats and the circumstances are just right, he deals:
6d6+18 nonlethal sneak attack damage, added to whatever your base damage with the sap is.
...and here:
...if I'm correct in saying the question being asked is:
"If I sacrifice some sneak attack dice, do I still get to count those dice in something like Sap Master?"
Then the answer is no. Once you sacrifice sneak attack dice to activate an ability, those dice are gone for that particular sneak attack BEFORE you roll damage, and thus they're not there to be doubled by some other effect.
Seems to me that effects that are based on your sneak attack dice are based on what you are currently rolling, not on what your class gives you.
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Ah, indeed, mea culpa. The clarification I was based upon said :
Then Knockout Artist kicks in, granting you another +6 damage. You're now doing 6d6+18 damage on a sneak attack.
Sap Master only doubles the sneak attack dice—it doesn't double your level's total amount of sneak attack dice allowed for your level, and THAT is what Knockout Artist and Sap Adept look for.
Which means talents based on sneak attack dice rolled work at a higher level, while the specific knockout artist/sap adept combo would not get increased by the sap master feat... except that from your quote, this too has been changed and Sap Master DOES improve the sap adept/knockout artist combo.
Interesting thing, assuming these all stack, the Underhanded talent associated with these feats make for a pretty OP combo... enjoy your maximized uber-sneak attack, especially with the Betrayer feat. ._.
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@ravingdork, I believe we have found discrepancies... I asked JJ how sap adept, sap master and knockout artist all interact in the ask JJ thread.
I presumed the damage would be higher, he explained how my application of the feats was incorrect and showed me how I went off the rails with that particular interpretation.
Here is JJ's response to my question copied from that thread. Note that his math appears to be different then in his response you have posted...
IF you had a ninja 12 and those three feats... when you sneak attack with a nonlethal bludgeoning weapon, you would do so like this:
Roll your attack normally. Then add your sneak attack damage. Your sneak attack is a 6d6 attack, and therefore Sap Adept adds +12 damage (twice the total number of sneak attack dice). Your sneak attack damage is now 6d6+12.Then Knockout Artist kicks in, granting you another +6 damage. You're now doing 6d6+18 damage on a sneak attack.
Sap Master only doubles the sneak attack dice—it doesn't double your level's total amount of sneak attack dice allowed for your level, and THAT is what Knockout Artist and Sap Adept look for.
Therefore, in the end, with all these things working together... you're doing sneak attack damage of 12d6+18. It IS a lot of damage, though. It's that Sap Master attack that really puts it over the top though.
In your example the bonus (static) damage is +18 when based off 3d6. Which is how I thought it would be. Note that it's still +18 when based off 6d6 in my example?
Which instance is correct?
Looks like James is contradicting himself, again.
With respect to James, I'm going to run it according to the rules, not his personal opinions.
The rule clearly state the bonuses are based on the sneak attack dice you ROLL, not how much you normally have.
He's trying to say (in Max's post anyways) that you would roll your normal sneak attack dice, add the bonuses, then roll the sneak attack dice again. Why would anyone ever do that? Players generally roll all their dice together for ease of play.
You don't roll 6d6 than 6d6 again, you roll 12d6.
I'm going to go with his post that makes the most sense.
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... but then again, Underhanded + Sap Adept + Sap Master provides you with (let's say at 5th level): 6d6+12 = 48 BASE damage, when the average fighter with 14 Constitution and Toughness will have 10(HD) +5x(5.5) +10(Con) +5(Tough) +5(Pred)= +57.5 hp.
That's a "pretty nice" opening despite the feat/talent cost.
Add the Betrayer feat in the equation some levels later, and you may get this damage twice in a single round (immediate action+standard surprise round), enough to THKO most warriors before they even understand they are under attack.
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Looks like James is contradicting himself, again.
With respect to James, I'm going to run it according to the rules, not his personal opinions.
The rule clearly state the bonuses are based on the sneak attack dice you ROLL, not how much you normally have.
He's trying to say (in Max's post anyways) that you would roll your normal sneak attack dice, add the bonuses, then roll the sneak attack dice again. Why would anyone ever do that? Players generally roll all their dice together for ease of play.
You don't roll 6d6 than 6d6 again, you roll 12d6.
I'm going to go with his post that makes the most sense.
His way makes sense if you apply the feats in the order that you would qualify for them - and base the results off your "base" sneak dice defined by your level.
Both ways are totally legit & RAW. Which speaks to the ambiguity of the language. Your way of applying the rules is much better from a player character perspective (and I prefer it).
That said, I'd rather build to the more conservative approach pending GM clarification - so as far as PFS goes I'll build to the worst and hope for the best (pending FAQ/errata)
I remember reading somewhere that you use the order of operations that was most beneficial, unless otherwise stated.
For example, if you had fire resistance 10 (say, from a spell) and fire vulnerability, and you took 20 damage, you would first knock off 10, then add half again (5) for a total of 15 damage.
I can't remember where I read that. Might have been from the v3.5 days, but I see no reason it wouldn't still apply today.
Thanks everyone for all the help. It is truly appreciated