Dear gents and ladies,
I am running the CoT Adventure Path and I like the setting and the story very much. My party, I am the GM, is a team of 6.5 adventurers (dwarven fighter, tiefling cleric, human sorcerer, gnome alchemist, human paladin, human bard/wizard + an occasionally joining rogue). We are currently ending the "mother of flies" and I am growing concerned that the last chapter won't pose any challenge.
The AP is definitely designed for a smaller group which usually leads to issues with the confined space when fighting and with the CR of encounters. CR change is easy. I usually upgrade the monsters a little or add extra foes, if there is space enough. Still, my paladin is my big issue.
He is a Paladin of Iomedae, please find some stats below. The full char (only in German)can be found here
Level: 9
ST18/CH18; 113HP; AC22, CMD26
Two-handed Sword mag.+2 Att+16 2d6+8 /Power Attack +13 2d6+17 (usually plus smite evil)
Lay-on-hands: 12x/day - 4d6 (on himself as a swift action)
- includes healing fatigue, desease, poison
Improved Sunder, Improved Critical, Weapon Focus
I an looking for ways to have a fight not solely focusing on that guy but find it near impossible. He usually kills evey foe within 2-3 rounds (even the Calikang), positions himself so that he creates a choke point to prevent the other group members to be targeted and if a foe really does damage, he sunders their weapons and armor (in one strike). It is really nasty, especially the F*?!ing healing of 4d6 each round, if necessary.
What does the adventure offer that can really pose a threat to him or what ideas can you give me to get a better handle?
When a fight starts, currently everyone focuses on buffing the Paladin and the Fighter and then stay out of it, which is becoming increasingly boring. Please help.
sorry, no really good idea, yet, perhaps incorporal creatures, swarms, more foes (he has only 1 AoO), ranged attacks, magic, attack from behind
Why does he has so many HP? Subtracting 27 HP for constitution, he has 86 HP. Divided by 9 levels, he rolls an average 9.5 on a d10. What have I missed?
Favored class bonus would give him 9 more, and full at first. That's an average 8.375 pure level, still high but not near perfect. I might cheat and start using a magic caster of some sort that uses disabling or charm spells and turn the tactics on themselves.
Othniel is right, he took the favored class bonus. Also, we roll twice for each level, keeping the better roll. And of course, he rolled very well...
He for sure hates incorporeal creatures a lot and everything with a miss chance. Unfortunately those creatures usually don't last long. At lower levels shadows and shadow mastiffs were great but with the clerical power in the group they do not last more than 1-2rounds.
His saves are really high, so charms and the like are in most cases a waste of time. Disabling spells or multiple sneak attacks could work... more ideas?
I'm a bit unclear, are you looking for help with Book 6? The one encounter you mention is at the end of Book 5...
I would equip the Council members with Tanglefoot Bags to limit his mobility. He will usually make the save, but would still be hampered.
And I would recommend ranged touch spells from spellcasters - usually no save.
All that said, Pathfinder paladins are very powerful (esp 2-Hand). And Council of Thieves plays to their mechanical strengths (lots of evil outsiders, narrow confines).
Because of this, I would make sure that they live up to the role-playing restrictions on a paladin - not to be a jerk GM or make them fall, but to challenge the player.
EDIT: I also have a paladin in my COT party. He is the only survivor of the original group.
Not charm the paladin. charm the fighter to keep the paladin entangled. That removed the buff stragtey and forces the others to engauge and likely leaves both of the fighter and the paladin with their characters
Hey Rambler,
Ranged touch and tanglefoot bags could be fun. Will try that in the neyt session. I was not referring to any encounter in paricular. The Paladin is just always the central figure in the fights an I need ways to keep him busy so that the others cab also participate.
Othniel, I like your idea too. Charming the fighter might al least break the formation. He would not turn on his friend though. Maybe Domination would be good.
It is getting worse... we are now in book 6 of the Council of Thieves AP.
The Pal is now Level 11 and jus singlehandedly killed the Barbed Devil (Hamatula), causing the fire spread in Westcrown in less than two rounds and without getting a scratch.
Smite Evil with Twohanded Sword +2 and Power Attack and improved critical:
Att: +19/+14 (17-20crit)Dmg: 2d6+28 /2d6+39 on the first hit
...plus: AC 30 and Lay on hands 5d6 /round
He could simply run through this adventure alone, and if his 6 buddies help him (enlarge, flight, ...) there is no stopping him.
Any further toughts? The hell is running out of devils...
I can mainly see spell as solution (as they are a solution to everything): against CaC, don't try to get stronger foe than them. Try too outsmart them. Plus, the best way to counter a wizard is an another wizard: Time for the other teammate to shine.
- Ray of enfeeblement with extend. Lvl 4. Even with a successfull save, that's still around 6 point of strength missing.
- A wall of force. Lvl 5 but it separate them 'definitely'...
- Or better. Dispel. Spell lvl3. Get him down if he is flying!
But if ya really want to take him on in fighting, remember that evil people can recruit that special rogue, not even evil, the kind a man working just for money and the thrill of the contract, typical LN.
You know, that halfing specialized on defense and feint.
Talents like Offensive Defense, Befuddling Strike. Feat like Dodge or Scroll of superior invisibility, scroll of shield, potions of healing. Maybe a scroll of silence. Don't give him powerfull stuff, just consumable one.
Fighting defensively and with combat expertise, he might have enough AC to tank that f@#@ing pal'.
And for the win, he is invisible: sneak all the time. Maybe Sap (two feats) him.
If you don't want of the invisible trick (that DOES seem like a trick) or if they can see him, he can use Two-Weapon Feint to sneak. Greater Feint would be useful too.
Those are quick ideas. I did that rogue as a DM for a super offensive barbarian. I wanted to give him a challenge. Finished as a draw cause he was half orc and that give him that one round to kill me but he fell.
Plus, there was the after-effect to heal him. It did took a lot from the group to get their fighter back to work.
Finally, you can attack them at night. Does he keep his armor and does he sleep in the same room as his friends? After all, he is the leader, with all those victories. And a leader should die to break the others. ^^
Sbourf
so someone knowingly hired just to kill someone is somehow maintaining a non evil alignment.....
Killing people is evil. So is stealing: can we say that Robin Hood is evil?
So the reason for it or other acts from the character can make him a neutral.
But it's true that my example was wrong. So you can add the flavor of your choice. ^^
A few fun example:
He's killing to feed his eleven younger brothers.
He's a former infiltrator from the army and his favorite dog is held hostage.
He's controlled by magic (okay not so fun).
etc...
The reason for his presence will be made up, anyway, cause he got nothing to do here: he's just here to be a worthy opponent for a paladin and his team.
Pendagast wrote: so someone knowingly hired just to kill someone is somehow maintaining a non evil alignment..... ...I alao think that an absolutely neutral killer seems a bit strange...
Keinlicht, are you the GM? If so, I would say you don't need the GMPC in the group. Have him do something else.
Otherwise, just remember than paladins specialize in killing single evil monsters very well. Just have more of them. maybe have some of the enemy use nets, tanglefoots, alchemists ve the paladin. If he's fighting 3 goons, the rest of the group can handle the BBEG.
You'd have teh same effect if all the opponenets were ogres and the character was a gunslinger.
Or the opponenents had vulnerability (fire) and the character was an alchemist.
Sbourf wrote: Killing people is evil. So is stealing: can we say that Robin Hood is evil?
So the reason for it or other acts from the character can make him a neutral.
But it's true that my example was wrong. So you can add the flavor of your choice. ^^
A few fun example:
He's killing to feed his eleven younger brothers.
He's a former infiltrator from the army and his favorite dog is held hostage.
He's controlled by magic (okay not so fun).
etc...
The reason for his presence will be made up, anyway, cause he got nothing to do here: he's just here to be a worthy opponent for a paladin and his team.
mind control on a non evil rogue/ninja might work.... him doing it for coin makes him evil....charm monster/quest/gaes may have the desired effect
Pendagast wrote: Sbourf wrote: Killing people is evil. So is stealing: can we say that Robin Hood is evil?
So the reason for it or other acts from the character can make him a neutral.
But it's true that my example was wrong. So you can add the flavor of your choice. ^^
A few fun example:
He's killing to feed his eleven younger brothers.
He's a former infiltrator from the army and his favorite dog is held hostage.
He's controlled by magic (okay not so fun).
etc...
The reason for his presence will be made up, anyway, cause he got nothing to do here: he's just here to be a worthy opponent for a paladin and his team.
mind control on a non evil rogue/ninja might work.... him doing it for coin makes him evil....charm monster/quest/gaes may have the desired effect I can actually see a non-evil assassin that works for money, however it's a fine line. Effectively his purpose isn't "kill people for money", it's "kill people for the greater good, and get money while doing it because I <and/or family, if appropriate> gots to eat and I ain't no thief".
So if said assassin were deceived, or had good reason to believe that the paladin would ultimately cause more harm than good... I could see it.
It would certainly be illegal (at least in most sane societies), but not automatically evil (though the vast majority of people would justifiably and reasonably believe that it is, and would be difficult to convince otherwise).
But yeah, in the vast majority of cases, it would definitely evil.
EDIT: to clarify a point I spoke badly and to note the edit I made.
Spudster wrote: pit spells Rexflexes save. Paladin. ^^
All, thx for your comments. There is dedinitely something in it I can use for the next sessions.
@darkwarriorkarg: Yes, I am the GM and I like to throw in some more monsters to keep everybody busy. Unfortunately, with a party of 7 it is getting easily crowded and also the AP does not have a lot of open quarters for battle. Too many things are happening indoors.
A bit late for this campaign perhaps, but at start of a campaign I construct about a dozen different characters as GM (generally one of each class) and say 'pick one'.
People still become attached and develop the character as they will, but it avoids startout min/ maxing (including with Traits).
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