While checking the arcane spell lists for the Past Mystic Life trait for a newly created Samsaran Wizard (I can choose 6 spells from other lists) I realized that the Summoner and Bard lists had quite some interesting things (mostly early access for some great spells like Maze or Greater Teleport). All of a sudden I had too many choices.
Firstly I was checking for good spells not on the Wiz/Sorc list, and I found Bard's Escape and Gallant/Brilliant Inspiration on the bard list. The Bard's Escape spell just seemed to great not to choose. I was more unsure about the Inspiration spells. Bard's Escape I *will* take.
Then I checked early access from the Summoner spell list (that list is just too silly, I found out) and Haste, Greater Teleport and Maze caught my attention. I might be missing more, but those are the ones I *will* be taking for now.
With Bard's Escape, Haste, Greater Teleport and Maze chosen, that leaves me with 2 slots open.
What are the good picks and why? I am very inexperienced with spellcasters in general and high-level play in particular.
I had a similar situation a few years ago. My Wizard took Greater Dispel Magic (one of my favorite spells) off the... Summoner list? Possibly Bard.
Anywho, I ended up using it more than even my 7th and 8th level spells.
EDIT: Oh, and Greater Teleport (but you already have that) and Dominate Monster (Summoner 6, Wizard 9!!!)
I should add that Enchantment is an opposition school, so Dominate Monster is not an option sadly.
I overlooked Greater Dispel Magic actually. Is it really that useful at higher levels? I had the impression that DCs were kinda hard to beat (the wizard is a conjurer and not an abjurer, so the DCs will be lower.)
Are the Hostile Juxtaposition spells any good? Summoner has the greater version one level earlier.
Quote: Mystic Past Life (Su) You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. If you add a spell that is already on your spell list, then it should have no effect. This ability was not designed to give early access to spells, and should not allow you to get spells earlier then the class you are taking them from. Selecting the Summoner's spell Haste as a Wizard, should not allow you to gain the spell 4 levels before a full summoner.
theishi wrote: Quote: Mystic Past Life (Su) You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. If you add a spell that is already on your spell list, then it should have no effect. This ability was not designed to give early access to spells, and should not allow you to get spells earlier then the class you are taking them from. Selecting the Summoner's spell Haste as a Wizard, should not allow you to gain the spell 4 levels before a full summoner. You'd think that yes. But there's nothing preventing you from doing that, interestingly. You just add a spell from another spell list to your own spell list. Doesn't mention that you can't have it already. For this thread, assume that you can. There's plenty of other threads where that thing has been discussed ad nauseam.
Any opinion to share regarding the topic at hand?
Summon Monster VIII as a level six spell, a d4+2 pouncing dire tigers are liable to end any combat at that level.
Greater Planar Binding. Go adventuring with your own pocket Planetar and its level 16 Cleric spellcasting abilities. I recommend having friends on hand in case it breaks out and chooses to remonstrate with you about interfering with the divine plan or something.
Plane Shift at level 5. If you choose this as your spell for Spell Perfection later on you can be dispatching enemies to the Abyss at range as a swift action by level 15 with a level 6 spell slot.
Why are you taking Bard's Escape? It's like a poor mans Dimension Door. Sure it takes slightly more people but it has a much shorter range (200' versus 800' at 20) and is a level higher and you still cant take any actions after casting it.
andreww wrote: Summon Monster VIII as a level six spell, a d4+2 pouncing dire tigers are liable to end any combat at that level.
Greater Planar Binding. Go adventuring with your own pocket Planetar and its level 16 Cleric spellcasting abilities. I recommend having friends on hand in case it breaks out and chooses to remonstrate with you about interfering with the divine plan or something.
Plane Shift at level 5. If you choose this as your spell for Spell Perfection later on you can be dispatching enemies to the Abyss at range as a swift action by level 15 with a level 6 spell slot.
I've consciously chosen to not take SMVIII as it would be overly broken (and steal the spotlight from my fellow party members), but a good suggestion I've considered myself.
Isn't a high charisma needed for Greater Planar Binding? I've never used any of the Planar Ally/Binding spells before so I don't know how effective they are in actual play. What task do I get them to do for me so they stick around and don't stab me in the back with creative interpretation of the terms of service?
Plane Shift: isn't it just willing targets though? Didn't think you could use it on enemies.
Edit: "Target creature touched, or up to eight willing creatures joining hands"
The first application is unwilling any creature? Not sure how good it would be in the campaign as it will feature plane travellers I believe. Unless you're thinking of something I'm not.
andreww wrote: Why are you taking Bard's Escape? It's like a poor mans Dimension Door. Sure it takes slightly more people but it has a much shorter range (200' versus 800' at 20) and is a level higher and you still cant take any actions after casting it. Because of the positional advantages. It's a combat spell for my Wizard, not an escape spell (whatever the name might be ^^). By the wording you can decide where everyone affected ends up within the range of the spell, i.e. I could chose to put all melee fighters in melee with the enemy so they can deliver their full-round attacks on their initiative (this is of course best if I go first). As per Dimension Door, it's only my wizard who cannot act afterwards, others I chose to have teleport can.
Raje wrote: Isn't a high charisma needed for Greater Planar Binding? I've never used any of the Planar Ally/Binding spells before so I don't know how effective they are in actual play. What task do I get them to do for me so they stick around and don't stab me in the back with creative interpretation of the terms of service? It is useful but not essential. It gets an opposed Charisma check to try and break out which is bad for you unless you target things with low Charisma and/or buff yourself prior to summoning. Later on Moment of Prescience allows you to add its bonus to opposed checks.
Quote: Plane Shift: isn't it just willing targets though? Didn't think you could use it on enemies.
Edit: "Target creature touched, or up to eight willing creatures joining hands"
The first application is unwilling any creature? Not sure how good it would be in the campaign as it will feature plane travellers I believe. Unless you're thinking of something I'm not.
Plane Shift can totally be used on a single unwilling individual. If you get it as a level 5 spell that leaves lots of space for metamagic, in particular Reach Spell and Persistent Spell. While some enemies you meet will be planar travellers its unlikely that all of them will be and Plane Shift effectively becomes a Will based save or die. Even for planar travellers sending them somewhere highly hostile gets them out of your hair for quite a while if not permanently.
On other options from the Bard list.
Mass Charm Montser at level six means you can make it Persistent. Persistent is one of the best Metamagic feats you can possibly add to a spell and you cant normally do this with the spell without Magical Lineage or an expensive Rod.
Greater Dispel is an excellent spell especially at higher levels and Bards get it at 5th.
Find the Path is normally a Divine spell and is one of the better Divinations, Bards get it at 6th.
Make your enemies helpless with Overwhelming Presence, normally level 9 but available as Bard 6.
You could grab Raise Dead/Resurrection, Heal/Harm (at 7th) from the Witch list.
Taking early entry spells also opens them up to being affected by cheaper MM Rods.
i was under the impression that you cant get any spells early this way.
theishi wrote: Quote: Mystic Past Life (Su) You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. If you add a spell that is already on your spell list, then it should have no effect. This ability was not designed to give early access to spells, and should not allow you to get spells earlier then the class you are taking them from. Selecting the Summoner's spell Haste as a Wizard, should not allow you to gain the spell 4 levels before a full summoner. A summoner gets level 2 spells at 4th level. A wizard gets them at 3rd level. It's basically the difference of wiz vs. sorc at that point.
And there is plenty of precedent for getting bonus spells early that are already on your spell list. The Wood Wizard getting Sirocco as a level 4 spell, for instance.
Your claims have no basis at all.
EDIT: People are seriously making a big deal out of getting Plane Shift as a level 5 spell when clerics, who are supposed to have a crappier spell list in return for the higher HD and BAB and saves and casting in armor...., already get as a 5th level spell?
Ill Omen from the witch list is quite handy. A good candidate for quicken spell at higher levels, to make your lethal spells stick much better.
Deafening Song Bolt (5th) is quite a gem from the bard list, if you ever feel like blasting. It deals the rough equivalent of 15d6 sonic damage, with no save and (for some odd reason) NO spell resistance, making it one of the most potent blasting spells in the game. The deafness effect is not a huge deal, though.
StreamOfTheSky wrote:
EDIT: People are seriously making a big deal out of getting Plane Shift as a level 5 spell when clerics, who are supposed to have a crappier spell list in return for the higher HD and BAB and saves and casting in armor...., already get as a 5th level spell?
Given that Plane Shift is one of the best save or suck spells around then yes. It has the significant benefit that it works on everything, something many Will based save spells dont given they are often Mind Affecting Compulsions.
The fact that Clerics get it early is neither here nor there.
Corlindale wrote: Ill Omen from the witch list is quite handy. A good candidate for quicken spell at higher levels, to make your lethal spells stick much better. Interesting. I wonder how that works with Persistent which effectively does the same thing.
If you combine it with Persistent I'm pretty sure they make 4 rolls and pick the lowest :-)
I figure it'd be like the multiplication rule: two things providing x2 damage, like a crit with a longsword during a spirited charge, would deal x3 damage.
And thus, two effects of roll twice and take the lower would yield roll 3 times and take the lowest.
Blasting is not really what I'm aiming at (battlefield control and less of a blasty role, leaving such things up to the damage dealers — a few fireballs with dazing being the exceptions), so that makes Deafening Song Bolt less ideal.
Enchantment spells from the bard list are out as well, due to it being an opposition school. I'd rather avoid using enchantment at all (to be honest, I dislike most of them).
Ill Omen is an interesting choice, but by then it won't help my action economy, and I don't have that many save-or-die/suck spells to justify quickening it. I'll keep it in mind.
Greater Dispel Magic I've placed high in the list, I'm somewhat leaning towards it. It seems like something I'd want to cast a few times a day in most cases?
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