I keep reading about how amazing menhir savants are. At a quick glance, I'm not seeing what's so awesome about them. Can someone explain how you take advantage of their powers?
I was really in love with the saurian and lion shamans due to their ability to summon as a standard action AND their ability to add the young/advanced/giant templates to their summons. This seems like a worthy trade for a somewhat stunted wild shape progression (since I don't plan on having high str/dex stats anyway). I would choose either saurian or lion mainly for summoning combat animals (tigers, or ankylosaurus/raptor/trex/etc.)
My gut take on this is that a shaman is the better summoner, while a menhir savant is the better all-around caster. A saurian shaman seems to be more versatile than a lion one, but many dinos won't be able to fit in many dungeons, plus the tigers are better damage dealers all around, so I'm still undecided between those two options as well.
Anyone with experience with either a lion/saurian shaman or a menhir savant have any advice?
Well both are great and can be highly effective.
I play a Menhir Savant in PFS - though not a pure druid, I play one which is multiclassed with monk - being a Menhir Savant means that my casting is slightly less stunted than it would be (still have fewer spells but at least cast most of them at a higher caster level which is always a good thing) - especially since PFS doesn't allow the Magical Knack trait that would help a multiclassed caster.
At higher levels Menhir Savants get some pretty nice abilities - Transport via Plants is a level 6 spell that you get to use at 9th level your WIS bonus # of times per day. Which is pretty nice. Not overly powerful but definitely good. Especially since you don't give up anything for this boost to your casting abilities.
And even at lower levels the 1st level power of the Menhir Savants is pretty nifty - being able to detect lots of things is surprisingly useful and powerful - among the better detect abilities in the game.
And at level 13 you get Empty Body which gives you Ethereal Jaunt for your Druid level rounds per day (which is a level 7 spell usually) in place of the also very powerful A Thousand Faces (which is at will Alter Self - pretty potent and iconic for druids but a lower level spell and of a very different utility). Both powers are good - so this is an interesting trade. Ethereal Jaunt can save you in combat and offers lots of tactical opportunities - while A Thousand Faces is less potent for combat but offers a lot of roleplaying opportunities and long term power (i.e. you can be anyone you want basically - and thus level 13 and higher Druids make great infiltrators/spies etc)
The Saurian shaman on the other hand can be extremely powerful in combat - both via summoning faster than usual druids (and often summoning more powerful creatures at lower levels and via applying templates) and your wildshape (and likely animal companion) can be extremely strong. But this does have some potentially balancing roleplaying issues - i.e. having a dinosaur isn't a typical thing in most urban centers.
Personally I think standard action summons with versatility and extra HP make the Saurian Shaman a clear stand out. Importantly Pteradons are a great flying summon, you have heavy hitters, pouncers, swimmers. Being able to change into a huge dinosaur at 6th level is also pretty great.
I'm just about to begin a PBP game with a Saurian Shaman with the Feather domain, and it looks like he will be very effective.
Been checking out the SNA list, and I'm beginning to doubt the usefulness of the Advanced and Giant templates. They look good, but adding +1 to the spell level means that SNA IV requires SNA V, and SNA V has at least as good as a templated SNA IV, if not better.
This becomes beneficial only at high levels (at least level 13) when you're still wanting that face-melter dire tiger, but you're now capable of casting SNA VII or higher. Saurian shamans won't really benefit either, since just about everything on the SNA list that they can summon are HUUUUUUUUGE. Saurians also can't summon any pounce/raker since the allosaurus isn't on the SNA list that I could see :(
In any case, the shamans still get to cast SNA as a standard action, which is still highly beneficial I think. I'm beginning to lean more towards Lion Shaman purely because standard-action-SNA is meaningless if you can only summon huge creatures that won't fit in dungeons.
I'm also still not sold on Menhir Savant, mainly because I still don't see why people rave about it so much. I definitely don't want to multiclass, and I'm still uncertain as to how useful that +1 CL is.
You cast as higher level. That's 1d6 on a generic blast or an extra bolt on call lightning or call lightning storm up to the damage cap. It's an extra round of flaming sphere or ball lightning. Or an extra round of summoned monsters. It's an extra hour of greater magic fang, making it an all working day spell a level earlier.
I think for the Saurian shaman, the Young template is actually the really nice one. It makes the dino a size smaller, which is useful for fitting it into smaller dungeons.
Other shamans may use the Giant template more, to upgrade lower-end animals, but the Saurian doesn't really need to, because it's got a well-stocked SNA list.
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I think the Menhir Servant's detect spirits ability is worthwhile too; several of those creature types can become invisible. It's a very different role though, more detective/caretaker, while the Saurian seems more like a battle summoner.
+1 CL is never a bad thing.
- it helps get through Spell Resistance
- it frequently lengthens durations and increases range
- in many cases it means more damage either through higher static bonuses or through additional damage dice
At lower levels it means a bit more damage or slightly longer buffs
At higher levels it means that much better chance of landing a spell on a creature with spell resistance and it likely opens up certain effects of spells a level sooner. That isn't huge but it is useful.
I think the appeal of the Menhir Savant isn't just the bonus CL, it is also the fairly powerful bonus spells and abilities in the mid to high levels plus the overall flavor is nice.
I just posted a build a little while ago with a Lion Shaman. Dipped one level in Sohei monk. That means, besides getting your WIS mod to your AC, but you always act in the surprise round. Surprise round + Summoning Pouncing Tigers as a standard action = not bad. I also dipped a level in Sorcerer (having charisma chilling at 11), being crossblooded - Orc/Red Draconic. If you want to blast, this dip will net you +2 damage per die on fire spells, +1 damage per die on anything else. Those two dips costs you a higher tier of spells, but Magical Knack takes care of 2 lost caster levels. Then I just remembered you definitely don't want to multiclass. So...She also is a Samsaran with the Mystic Past Life alternate racial gig, which gives her Scorching Ray, Animate Dead, Lightning Bolt, Restoration, Raise Dead, and Break Enchantment on her spell list (her past life is an Adept).
Better yet: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pbkk?Help-with-my-Druid-Optimization
Check her out if you want.
Quote: I think for the Saurian shaman, the Young template is actually the really nice one. It makes the dino a size smaller, which is useful for fitting it into smaller dungeons. The problem is that that makes them less powerful, and less likely to land a hit against a PC. I suppose they're still useful to summon against caster types. Still no allosaurus pouncer that I can summon though.
Quote: I just posted a build a little while ago with a Lion Shaman. Dipped one level in Sohei monk. That means, besides getting your WIS mod to your AC, but you always act in the surprise round. Surprise round + Summoning Pouncing Tigers as a standard action = not bad. Had no idea Sohei monks can always act in a surprise round. Right now there's a divination wizard in the party though, which is why I wanted the druid to be able to cast a summon as a standard action. With the Lookout feat the druid will be able to summon in the surprise round without dipping and losing a spell level. She'll most likely be perched on the wizard's shoulder.
Quote: +1 CL is never a bad thing. Seems like the Menhir Savant's exactly what I thought it was like. I guess people see is as amazing because it makes the regular druid an even better druid, but given what I'm looking for, I think that standard-action summon is a much better fit.
Ender: so you take a dino from the next spell up and make it smaller, or you get 1d3 dinos that actually fit, rather than one that's too big.
Applying the Young template also moves the creature down a SNA-level, that's why it's great.
You get the deinonychus at 4th which can pounce, though admittedly the tiger is clearly superior. But how often will a summon need to pounce? You can summon them straight into full attack positions more often than not IME, having fliers on the roster is far more useful IMO and heavy hitters are better at overcoming ever increasing DR as you level. Pounce occasionally gives you a good advantage, fly simply becomes necessary to be effective in a growing proportion of encounters.
A key for either archetype however is to do the math AHEAD of time - for your sake, your fellow players and the DM. If you prep summons (w/templates) or if you know your spells when what the impact of a +1 to CL will be w/o looking it up you will definitely get more out of your archetype abilities than if you have to calculate everything on the fly.
Rycaut wrote: A key for either archetype however is to do the math AHEAD of time - for your sake, your fellow players and the DM. If you prep summons (w/templates) or if you know your spells when what the impact of a +1 to CL will be w/o looking it up you will definitely get more out of your archetype abilities than if you have to calculate everything on the fly. This is actually for a party that I'm creating as a DM for my players to oppose against. There's 7 of them, so I'm creating a party of 5 at equivalent level. Got 2 animal companions in the party to try to make up for it so that it'll be a tough but fun fight. The reason for all the questions is that as much as I can just wing it as the DM, I really need to make sure the characters fit the story. This party is supposed to be a very capable group of dungeon-delvers/adventurers, and having a druid with huge animals around isn't jiving too well with me. But yeah, I'm always prepared for the encounters :)
Quote: Pounce occasionally gives you a good advantage, fly simply becomes necessary to be effective in a growing proportion of encounters. You're right that pounce isn't necessary for summoned creatures, but rake is pretty important when you're comparing a big one-hitter vs a raker. You bring up a great point about flight, but even the flying creatures from the SNA list that I can see are massive. Putting the Young template on them weakens them so much. I'll go over the numbers and see how they do though, since Augment Summoning will help alleviate some of the issue.
I've got a lot of the better Saurian summons statted out with templates in this characters profile. They are with augment summoning and have the temp HP from totem summons simply incorporated in their HP - as it seems to make little difference with summons.
Would it be legit to apply both the young and advanced templates?
Well I would generally say you should track real and temp HP separately - too easy to forget if, for example, your Cleric were to channel in the midst of combat
galahad2112 wrote: Would it be legit to apply both the young and advanced templates? I wondered the same thing myself. I don't see why you wouldn't be able to though. Seems like the only benefit would be a +4 to Dex. Good benefit, but not game-breaking.
actually, I think that the dex bonus would be +8, as the young template gives a size bonus to dex. of course, I don't really see how improving the mental stats will really help... but +4 AC isn't bad, and some of the summoned critters have weapon finesse, so that's pretty sweet too.
galahad2112 wrote: Would it be legit to apply both the young and advanced templates? Yeah, sure. It's not always a bad idea either;
* +8 Dex, +4 Wis, +4 Cha
* +1 size mod to hit & AC
* -1 size mod to CMD/CMB
* decrease natural weapons
* size bonus to Fly and Stealth
So your creature gets +5AC at the cost of some damage. Best on creatures with one good attack instead of many small attacks. Especially good if your critter has Finesse.
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I have played a Menhir Savant. It is an amazing archetype. The +1 Cl is powerful, the spirit sense is handy, the transport via plants makes overworld travel for the party very easy, and the ethereal state is potent both in combat and to scout what's behind a door/wall.
It's a rare and wonderful treat to find something that is chock full of power, flavor, *and* coolness.
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