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Heya folks,
So a while back I had a conversation about the qinggong monk and what happens when you replace slow fall at lvl four with another ability. I've recently pick up the character which originally brought up the question and found out we never totally figured it out.
He thought that one lvl 4 Qinggong Monk ability replaced all instances of slowfall for the monk.
Reading the ability and taking it as it's written I agree.
But when you look at an exerpt from the Ultimate Magic Book it says on page 14 " If an archetype replaces a class ability that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a fighter’s weapon training or a ranger’s favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype. In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability. "
According to this after you take the 4th lvl Qinggong ability by replacing slowfall the next time the monk would gain slowfall at lvl 6 he'd get slowfall 20ft instead of slowfall 30ft.
So that part is pretty well explained, what do you think?
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The next question is "can I replace the multiple instances of slowfall with qinggong abilities.?"
Now he says no, since it only lists "slowfall (lvl 4)" as an option.
I dont have hard evidence, but I think each instance of slow fall should be able to be replaced.
This is because of how the list of abilities you can get from qinggong monk are listed.
The list of abilities you can choose from gets bigger every two levels. 4th -> 6th -> 8th and so on.
But the stuff you can replace for qinggong abilities are at a much more random pace.
slow fall (4th), high jump (5th), wholeness of body (7th), diamond body (11th), abundant step (12th), diamond soul (13th), quivering palm (15th), timeless body (17th), tongue of the sun and moon (17th), empty body (19th), and perfect self (20th).
At level 6, 8, 10, 14, 16, 18 the list grows but there's nothing you can replace.
Why have more things available when it's impossible for the monk to get an ability at that level?
If you could replace multiple instances of slowfall it would fit perfectly, you'd have an ability to replace every even level - right when the list of abilities to choose from grew. I feel like this was intended, but it never got written down in the archtype's description.
Also, I feel like since the qinggong monk was supposed to be the monk caster archtype (It's in Ultimate magic..) it would have an okay, not great, but okay list of spells available. But as it's listed (without replacing each instance of slowfall) you learn 11 spells by level 20 by replacing quite a few of your class's unique functions, like your capstone, your Save or Die ability, and other stuff. This one is more about how I felt playing a quinggong monk and being dissatisfied at how few spells I could actually learn. Only Learning 3 spells by lvl 10 was pretty meh. (that's as many spells as any casting class knows at lvl 1)
(on a side note, you can replace Perfect Self at lvl 20....with Perfect Self? What the heck?)
Anyhow, I'd love to get some thoughts on the topic :D Thanks all.
Weapon Training and Favored Enemy grant different bonuses at those levels (a different weapon group and a new FE) as well as improving the old.
Slow Fall adds nothing new over time, it just improves the overall Slow Fall bonus.
Also, not all Archetypes have Perfect Self.
Here's a Guide to the Quinggong Monk that you might find useful.
Reading the rules for Quinggong Monk it seems clear to me that you only replace each power once.
"At level 6, 8, 10, 14, 16, 18 the list grows but there's nothing you can replace. Why have more things available when it's impossible for the monk to get an ability at that level?"
Some archetypes get abilities early. By listing new powers based on the lowest level they're balanced for, Paizo has set up the Quinggong to adapt to existing and later archetypes.
Hmm, I guess I can see the difference between fighter weapon training 1 and slowfall, but the example continues (right after the part I quoted) to reference sneak attack being affected by that rule too, and that only improves over time, like slow fall.
Ah, I think this might be a misunderstanding on my part on what you can use qinggong monk with, I thought that since it "changed" all of the abilities you can choose to not take you can only use it with other archtypes that dont have those abilities replaced/changed.
That makes plenty more sense now, although you can only replace perfect self at level 20 (not including the slow fall at that lvl) so even if you had an archtype that replaced perfect self, you couldn't get rid of anything to take it. Huzzah! More to suggest you can replace slow fall more than once :D
You could get rid of the Master of Many Styles' Perfect Style if you wanted.
Also, remember, Qinggong is an archetype as well. What it's listing there is all your options for that level. You can take Perfect Self (as normal Monk) or you can take something else.
In effect, Qinggong replaces all, and none, of your class features.
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
You could get rid of the Master of Many Styles' Perfect Style if you wanted.
Also, remember, Qinggong is an archetype as well. What it's listing there is all your options for that level. You can take Perfect Self (as normal Monk) or you can take something else.
In effect, Qinggong replaces all, and none, of your class features.
Which is why it's kind of wonky. Does anyone know if any devs have ever chimed in on this one? I know there were some pretty intense threads revolving around whether Qinggon worked with most archetypes or almost no archetypes because of the rule that you can't take an archetype that alters or replaces the same ability as another archetype.
Pretty sure they chimed in at one point saying that since it doesn't actually "alter or replace" anything except by choice, it's compatible with everything.
Makes sense to me. You can tack Qinggong onto any combination of archetypes, it just reduces the pool of abilities you can replace (a combo without Still Mind, that changes the Bonus Feats, gets rid of the Diamond X, etc. wouldn't benefit much).
Also yeah you couldn't replace Perfect Style. It gives a list of things that can be replaced up top.
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Pretty sure they chimed in at one point saying that since it doesn't actually "alter or replace" anything except by choice, it's compatible with everything.
Makes sense to me. You can tack Qinggong onto any combination of archetypes, it just reduces the pool of abilities you can replace (a combo without Still Mind, that changes the Bonus Feats, gets rid of the Diamond X, etc. wouldn't benefit much).
Also yeah you couldn't replace Perfect Style. It gives a list of things that can be replaced up top.
You wouldn't happen to have any idea what the thread was titled/about where a dev chimed in would you? I keep a list of dev clarifications on things like this so I have them handy for reference (particularly with PFS GMs) and I haven't been able to find that one anywhere.
Sadly, no. This was quite a few months ago and I wasn't in the habit of favoriting those posts then, if I did see one at all.
I would love to know this as well. Hit the FAQ button!
Has this ever been figured out?
Sorry for the Necro
No my question was about using slow fall over and over again each time you gain it cause hero labs was allowing it. But im pretty sure it wont.
"A qinggong monk can select a ki power (see below) for which she qualifies in place of the following monk class abilities: slow fall (4th), high jump (5th), wholeness of body (7th), diamond body (11th), abundant step (12th), diamond soul (13th), quivering palm (15th), timeless body (17th), tongue of the sun and moon (17th), empty body (19th), and perfect self (20th)."
Everything not on this list can't be replaced.
Yes, the levels of the ki powers make absolutely no sense for a chained monk. Just like it would make no sense te require martials to have way above average intellect and waste a useless feat just to do basic fighting stuff like trippen someone. Oh, wait...
Welcome to Pathfinder. It's a Monk archetype. Of course it has to have sucking parts. Monks have extra attacks and someone at Paizo apparently things that extra attacks are the strongest thing ever therefore everything that might have additional attacks has to be severely nerfed.
The thread is from 2012, so Chained Monk.
I don't think there's any ambiguity on how Qinggong Ki Powers work for Unchained Monk.