Ok,
I was looking around, and I don't think there's anyway to do this other than a monk of the empty hand, which kind of sucks for it, but could do it anyway.
The idea is, is there a way to add a non-monk weapon to the monk list, or to flurry with a non-standard weapon? I'm specifically looking at a scythe. I know it's not a great weapon choice, but it has all sorts of flavor. I could do it with monk of the empty hand using it as an improvised weapon, but that pretty much dumps any chance of him being effective to be honest.
I figured I'd ask if anyone had seen a way to do it within the core rules.
Anyone actually identify the prestige/multiclass thingy in question? I think there is a diety or two available who use scythes.
Ahh!!! Crusader's Flurry. Hmm, that would work.
Yep, but I think the Crusader's Flurry works best. I can dip into cleric one or two levels and go mostly monk. Just need to figure out what type of monk to go as. Thanks bunch.
I am Playtesting a Feat that allows a Monk of 3rd level to count 1+INT weapons as Monk Weapons. It will probably be bumped up to 3+INT weapons though...
I could see where that would be extremely unbalancing. Imagine a monk flurrying with a str build using an elven curve blade and improved crit (or keen curve blade).
Granted, I could do the same thing with the scythe (although a 19-20/x4 isn't as bad as 15-20 x2 I don't think).
I could see where that would be extremely unbalancing. Imagine a monk flurrying with a str build using an elven curve blade and improved crit (or keen curve blade).
Granted, I could do the same thing with the scythe (although a 19-20/x4 isn't as bad as 15-20 x2 I don't think).
Statistically, a 10% chance of x4 damage is equal to a 30% chance of x2 damage, assuming all else is equal. The Scythe and Falchion are equivalent in theory.
In practical terms, however, x4 is so much damage that it's usually overkill, and most of that gets wasted, so it tends not to actually perform equally.
Yeah,
I knew they were supposed to be about the same in a vacuum, but had the feeling in play they would not be, and that the elven curve blade would be better. That would be the reason too, especially in a target rich environment where you can spread the pain around. :)
Homebrew world, and the GM has already basically said any diety we want to work in, even if it's not a standard diety, is fine. Mainly because she hasn't fully fleshed out all her dieties. I'm thinking a deity of death or a deity of the Harvest. :)
Pursuant to an earlier thread, I just build a Cleric(Crusader) 1/Monk(Hungry Ghost Monk) 9. He uses Dervish Dance and flurry's with a scimitar, using the open hand for Crane Style/Wing/Riposte.
Flurry with ki for an extra attack: +18/+18/+18/+13/+13 (1d8+10 15-20/x2)
That's enough crit, plus kills hopefully, to get a ki back every turn:)
Nice. Deffinately puts the kibosh on the 'monks do not do damage' idea. :)
A STR build with a ECB still only deals 1x STR on their flurry.
I guess I should have specified that it is Light, One-handed, and Thrown weapons only...
Sohei Monks can flurry with some weapon groups, and do not need to dip fighter because they gain weapon training.
"At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training. "
Yep, it seems that is true. Not sure if it was intended, but it works out that way.
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Yep, it seems that is true. Not sure if it was intended, but it works out that way.
it doesn't work that way. If you read the Sohei entry pasted above you see that the Sohei doesn't gain the ability to flurry w/weapon training until 6th level. If you go Weapon Master 3 first all your doing is delaying the flurry ability 3 levels (the flip side is that you may be able to flurry with more diverse group of weapons once you hit Sohei 6).
Also note that in the Curve Blade build the Monk would get 3:1 returns on Power Attack - and being that all attacks in a flurry can be with a single weapon (wielded in 2 hands), the loss of the extra .5 x STR mod is more then made up for with Power Attack.
Hmmm,
I see. I didn't bother looking too hard at the Sohei, since I want to be able to flurry from level 3. Looks like you're right on the level 6, glad I didn't go that route. :)
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^I'm still wondering if dipping Cleric for 1 level and losing out on BAB is worth it to gain a "superior" weapon?
I haven't done the math but I think a Temple sword wielded in 2 hands would do just fine. Heck even the Quarterstaff becomes a decent weapon when used like a 2 handed weapon for ALL attacks granting 3:1 on Power Attack.
I guess the nice thing about using the scimitar & dervish dance is that you can be less MAD. As long as you keep 13 STR you get to take Power Attack (which is pretty much mandatory on account that Piranha Strike won't work).... Heck, maybe go Halfling and take Risky Striker instead??? I'm just rambling now...
Doesn't have anything to do with the 'superior' weapon with the scythe, that's more just a flair thing. I love the image of a guy whirling round and round with a scythe and blood flying in concentric circles around him. :)
And, that dip to cleric does give some nifty benefits, such as 2 domains (travel would give some additional movement boost), the ability to use all cleric spell wands and scrolls, staffs at higher levels (with a high wisdom).
I would probably take power attack at 5th level, just to up the damage. I like the tengu for this build, because it boosts wisdom/dex and penalizes Cha (which you won't need).
Also note that in the Curve Blade build the Monk would get 3:1 returns on Power Attack - and being that all attacks in a flurry can be with a single weapon (wielded in 2 hands), the loss of the extra .5 x STR mod is more then made up for with Power Attack.
You can just wield a Scimitar (from Sarenrae) in two hands to get the same 3:1 benefit, and you only lose 2 average damage from the smaller weapon die.
Didn't they say that Power Attack is also reduced when flurrying...
And the Ki Weapon was from the Eberron Setting. Which is why it was included in DDO.
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You can just wield a Scimitar (from Sarenrae) in two hands to get the same 3:1 benefit, and you only lose 2 average damage from the smaller weapon die.
You could, but you can't do that & Dervish Dance. I do like this idea with a Hungry Ghost monk on account of the steal Ki thing...
@mdt: I was just rambling about the superior weapon and it wasn't meant to be a comment about your idea with the scythe. What about about being a Cleric/Monk of one of the horsemen of the apocalypse - I believe they have them in the Inner Sea World Guide... Martial Artist would allow you to circumvent any alignment issues and give you access to Fighter only feats.
One other idea, and whether its permitted by RAW, is up for debate... The Crusader archetype may grant you Weapon Focus with the Scythe at level 1 as a bonus feat... What's debatable is whether or not the archetype allows you to ignore the BAB prerequisite for Weapon Focus. I read it that it does, but the author of the archetype says it doesn't. So even though I don't agree I play it the way it was intended by the author...
I thought it was something along the lines of "You always count as wielding it one handed."
Then later on they said "Even in relation to Power Attack and such feats it still counts as being wielded one-handed."
It apparently was explained as you are swinging so fast you can't get enough force to deal the extra damage.
I guess the nice thing about using the scimitar & dervish dance is that you can be less MAD. As long as you keep 13 STR you get to take Power Attack (which is pretty much mandatory on account that Piranha Strike won't work).... Heck, maybe go Halfling and take Risky Striker instead??? I'm just rambling now...
Less MAD, and in the case of a monk, higher AC, great acrobatics & stealth, etc. Since they don't wear armor, a monk actually gets more benefits from a DEX build than most other characters.
w/ Power Attack & ki: +16/+16/+16/+11/+11 (1d8+14 15-20/x2)*
AC _DPR____w/PA__
22 44.75 | 48.91
24 37.73 | 39.60 (typical CR 10 monster)
26 30.54 | 30.32
28 23.39 | 21.39
*Fighting defensively to use Crane Reposte gives an additional -1 to attack, for a typical net DPR 35 against a CR 10 foe, PA and Crane Reposte both active.
Giving the monk the ability to flurry with any weapon for a feat would be handy, but the two-handed thing means it gets easily abused with Power Attack. An amendment to the monk's flurry rules that Power Attack with a flurrying weapon, like the strength bonus, treats the weapon as a one-handed weapon whether it is in the off-hand or two handed, might work.
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Why neuter the further Monk by limiting Power Attack? They already don't get 1.5 x STR, they don't get any static bonuses (boni?) to damage like Smite or Favoured Enemy. They don't have additional circumstantial damage sources like Sneak Attack.
You can't go two pages on these boards without finding a thread dedicated to how much Monks suck.
Throw the Monk a bone and let them flurry with a 2 handed weapon and make full use of Power Attack. It is the only thing they got that helps them close the DPR gap everyone moans about.
As it stands its RAW as per the last FAQ/errata, so let it be.
@mdt: I was just rambling about the superior weapon and it wasn't meant to be a comment about your idea with the scythe. What about about being a Cleric/Monk of one of the horsemen of the apocalypse - I believe they have them in the Inner Sea World Guide... Martial Artist would allow you to circumvent any alignment issues and give you access to Fighter only feats.
One other idea, and whether its permitted by RAW, is up for debate... The Crusader archetype may grant you Weapon Focus with the Scythe at level 1 as a bonus feat... What's debatable is whether or not the archetype allows you to ignore the BAB prerequisite for Weapon Focus. I read it that it does, but the author of the archetype says it doesn't. So even though I don't agree I play it the way it was intended by the author...
The martial artist might work as well, but it negates the cool trip or flat foot on AoO of the flowing monk (which if it hits, leaves the target flat-footed or tripped), which helps with a full ki flurry power attack the next round. :) On the other hand, the access to fighter only feats would allow for things like weapon specialization and greater weapon focus, which are nice. I'll consider it. :)
As to the Crusader archetype, remember, just because the author didn't intend it, doesn't mean that's how it is RAW. Jason has final say on all that stuff, and if the weapon focus shouldn't be able to be gotten at 1st level it shouldn't be on the list of 1st level feats. On the other hand, I wouldn't care personally because I'll be starting at 3rd level. I may indeed look this over very closely, thanks for the suggestion.
They don't have additional circumstantial damage sources like Sneak Attack.
A flowing monk might find it worth dipping a level of Rogue to be able to add a 1d6 sneak attack to any enemy he's flat footed (considering how often he get's attempts to do so). Imagine tripping an enemy this round with your first flurry attack, then hitting him with each of the additional attacks and tacking another 1d6 to them. And if you go before him next round, a full flurry with ki attack to do the same time.