| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I probably wouldn't be that specific.
Each +5 is worth a 'tidbit' of information. However, AC is a multivariable statistic; it could give you a Dexterity score, a Natural Armor bonus, a Dodge feat, an a special ability that adds Intelligence to AC.
Not only could it give you more information than just a tidbit, but I feel like it could lead to some combat-slowing metagaming, and takes away a DMs ability to flex a monster's statistics; there are certain kinds of experienced players that will begin taking that statistic and extrapolating the rest of the creature, then through the rest of the fight agonizing over whether applying Power Attack will maximize their damage output over time, or later, whether they should risk leaving the creature unthreatened because its ranged touch attack should be ... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... +9.
Then if the creature deviates from the norm at all, the player is likely to feel cheated; if their Knowledge check told them that the average creature has an AC of 24 and it turns out that you're using an Advanced creature, or a tweaked version, or a creature benefiting from a spell, it's likely to cause unrest at a table when a player's knowledge ability led them to make a worse decision than if they'd went in blind.
I prefer to operate in categories: I'll let a player ask me for information from categories, like Defenses, Special Attacks, Sensory abilities and so on. I'll try to give them relevant information to their character -- if they're an elementalist the first thing they'll want to know from Defenses is if they're immune or resistant to [favorite energy type], or if they're a stealthy character they probably want to know if the enemy has see in darkness.
On the other hand, if left to my own devices I'll try to give the tidbit that is the most 'unique' to a monster: If a monster has a unique ability to erupt from the ground, grab you and retreat, then that's probably what you'll know. I'm sure you can imagine the sour look on a player's face if they knew all about a creature, such as its DR 5/Magic and Darkvision, but didn't know about what should be the most prevalent quality about it from stories.
How specific can you get with the questions you have from successful knowledge rolls?
Can you be as specific as asking for a break down of the AC of the monster?
Usually if my players make their roll, I tell them what it is (if they didn't know already from the description/artwork) and then most of my players pretty much know the Bestiary anyway. But, like was said, they understand that monster abilities can be tweaked, so any assumptions they make are done in character, at least I hope. I've never really had much of a problem.
In fact, once we had a fight with a black pudding. One character made the roll and mine didn't. So he decided that since the GM told him (this player didn't have the knowledge of black puddings I and the GM did) that they multipled when you slash them, he said do NOT slash them. Well, as slashing was my character's only attack (she was a catfolk rogue with the cat claws talent and two sets of claw weapons from the ARG) she wasn't sure what to do... so we died. Badly. (It was a one shot game, so dying wasn't a big deal)
Thing is, if we both had went in slashing, we might have stood a chance since it only takes 7 slashing attacks to fully kill a black pudding. (Huge pudding when slashed takes 1pt of damage only, but splits in two, the hp of each is half the original. Then slash those two and they take 1 damage, then half the HP as they split. Now you have 4... those last 4 die when you slash them cause their HP drops below 7 and the rules say that's the end for them) Haha.
Here's an idea: Let the players come up with questions that the DM can answer. The more time the characters have to sit and think about the monster, the more detailed your answers. If they were asking this in the heat of battle, I'd give them answers relative to themselves, but no specifics. For example, "What's the AC?"
"Higher than the Fighter's."
Or, you can just let them ask you yes/no questions if the group is in battle and the player wants to know if their PC's would know something.
If they had time to consult books and otherwise cogitate, I might give a specific answer. That reflects time to research and ask NPC's questions.
How's that?
|
Here's what I was looking at whenI asked about the AC break down...
My character has Improved Feint which I us to low AC's, if the monster has dex bonus to AC, as well as to lower CMD.
I was just looking to see if using Monster Knowledge could let me know if it had a dex bonus that could be removed.
|
To me "does it have a DEX bonus to AC" or "how much of its AC is armour, natural armour or shield" (with appropriate rewording) are facts that the character could estimate or people in the setting could observe, thus reasonable points of information, particularly if the character studies this stuff to increase the effectiveness of his major adventuring abilities. Exact numbers, a full breakdown, or asking for this on a bare pass of the DC are too much.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sure, I'd be okay with that.
I don't really have a problem with players asking questions. It could represent the character paying special attention to facts relevant to his party when he's improving his knowledges.
I might have to keep this one in mind.
Dotted for future reference.
This comes up in every game (one player is an inquisitor, another is a ranger, one is a rogue with Kirin strike and my character is a knowledge heavy diviner).
|
If you observe the creature fighting for a while, you should be able to see if it survives blows because its tough hide protects it, or because it's fast and nimble, if it's wearing armor and shield, or if a mystical force deflects blows before the even touch the creature.
So a general breakdown of AC for the "typical" creature is a fair question for Knowledge. That doesn't mean numbers, but it does mean saying "this monster is quite fast; evasion is a major part of its defense", and that would tell you that Feinting is worth it on this monster. Particularly the big bonuses to its AC are worth mentioning.
If the particular specimen diverges from the norm, ask yourself as GM, is it noticeable? If this particular monster is carrying a shield, that should be pretty noticeable. If its Dodge bonus is +5 instead of +6, less noticeable.
Will giving the players this information cause them to break down into calculations? Sometimes, but that's not entirely bad. It means they've got a more sophisticated fighting style than "hit it as hard as you can". I like it when people try to fight smart. Don't take it to extremes, but deciding to Feint a creature relying mainly on Dex/Dodge is bona fide playing.
Sure, that all seems reasonable.
I don't think "This monster is clumsy," "This monster has average mobility," "This monster is rather quick," or "This monster relies on its agility to avoid injury" are going to make many players break down into calculations. It's once we get to the idea of giving players the numbers that I start getting flashbacks to 3.5 power attack calculation tables.
|
To me, "Would this creature be affected by my <whatever> ability?" should not only be a valid question, but I'd almost require it to be the first question the player asks. I wouldn't answer with an exact number, just a yes or no answer to that specific question.
In character, there are certain things that will stand out to a PC when he learns about a creature: First, any "unique" things about that monster type, as Troubleshooter pointed out. Second, anything that's specific to that PCs frame of reference, which would include whether or not their own abilities would be effective in a fight against that monster.
For AC we usually do low, average or high. Low being that our 3/4 bab can hit easily (5-10 on their roll), med being that the 3/4 bab has to roll 10-15, and high meaning that the 3/4 bab can only hit on a really high roll (like 18-20). Sometimes the DM will also say really high which means the 3/4 bab guy is screwed!
For other specific we ask for any specific offensive or defensive special abilities. So if we got three things we could ask how hard to hit and what kind of special offensive abilities does it have? GM would be like medium defense with grabbing ability and can swallow people.
I don't think "This monster is clumsy," "This monster has average mobility," "This monster is rather quick," or "This monster relies on its agility to avoid injury" are going to make many players break down into calculations. It's once we get to the idea of giving players the numbers that I start getting flashbacks to 3.5 power attack calculation tables.
Remember, most players think in terms of their own characters, since that's their main reference. Therefore, couching answers to relative to their own character stats would make a lot of sense. That, and it tends to scare the heck out of players!
I once had a player who spent lots of beginning points on having a badass familiar (different game system). Since he was a vampire, I figured the only beastie that would hang out with him was a demon, and since he'd spent so much on it, I gave him precisely what he asked for.
That was the problem. See, the difficulty with this familiar was that he really WAS a sadistic SOB, and never ever lied. Worse, he knew things that the PC didn't, the secret kind of things. He'd tell the truth, but it would be things the PC never ever wanted to know.
"Hey, wanna see what stats are of this guy's physical attributes? (show him an ungodly high set) Guess what? They're his lowest." And he'd do it WHILE the player was trying to talk with the NPC, causing the other players to give him the hairy eyeball at the terrified look on his face...(evil grin)
Meanwhile, I rapidly gained a reputation as being a horribly evil GM, not because I necessarily had nasty villians, but because they'd get terribly nervous whenever I'd give in to one of their schemes...and give them precisely what they asked for...
Aside from the type and name of the monster, I most times give them some special ability the monster does have ( wrapped in flavor text, of course ), because AC and HP numbers are waaaay too specific and meta-gamey in my opinion.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Depends on how high the roll is. Generally, for your more standard monsters I (and my GM for the other game) do something like:
A 5 gets you the basic type of monster it is (Is it a corporeal undead? Why yes Jimmy, yes it is.)
A 10'll get you the specific type and its basic abilities and disadvantages (Yeah, it's a standard zombie, the one with the Staggered condition always on.)
A 15 gets a bit more specific knowledge (It has 3 attacks and moves a bit faster than normal, its AC is fairly high)
A 20 gets some specific numbers (AC 16, it's got a maximum of 35 HP)
A 25+ gets an invitation to just open up the bestiary page and use whatever you find on there as long as you don't hold up the game.
For more rare and unnatural monsters, get rid of the 5 roll and then move everything up a category, with a 30+ being free use of the bestiary page.