Goblin Squad Member
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This is mostly a curiosity as I will have $80k of student debt at the end of March and thus don't have $1k to drop on this game, but it might be helpful to those on the fence of taking the plunge.
I was looking at the graphics on the kickstarter that neatly describe what each reward tier gets and stumbled across the word "FREE!" where it says "4 month sub" for Crowdforger Pioneer and "1 month sub" for Adventurer. I am assuming this means "free lifetime subscription."
This understanding contradicts the wording of the Crowdforger alpha reward description:
Crowdforger Alpha - Patrons at this level get ... a three-month game subscription.
On a related topic, I am assuming "All Daily Deal items" means you get all of them regardless of when you pledged?
Should my assumptions be correct, the wording should be changed immediately to reflect that. This will not only clear up any misunderstandings but also sell the Crowdforger Alpha level much more quickly. I imagine Crowdforger Pioneer will also sell quicker once the wording in that tier reflects the new 4 month sub level in the graphic.
Edit: I just noticed now it says Early Enrollment and then FREE!. So is it free just for the Early Enrollment period or for the life of the game?
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Goblin Squad Member
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You may have already seen this...
From Pathfinder Online Kickstarter:
It's hard for me to imagine ever selling a lifetime subscription. Frankly, I think they're always vastly underpriced, and if they were offered at the real value, I doubt most people would buy them.
For example, 20% of the people who played EVE the first month it was on line are still playing. Multiply that number by the 7 years its been in operation and you get a figure in the thousands of dollars. Now compound that by knowing that about 20% of the people who join in any given month also stay effectively forever, and you start to see how much money is lost if you let the hardest of the hard core buy a "lifetime subscription" for $250 or something.
I wonder, though, if it would make sense to offer a 5-year Subscription for about $1,000. Ryan has said he wants characters to have a viable lifespan of at least five years, so this could be a Character Lifetime Subscription.
From Your Pathfinder Online Character:
One of the design goals for Pathfinder Online is that characters should have a viable lifespan of at least five real-time years
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wish I had disposable income in this range cause I would donate it just to ensure this game sees the light. Granted, having the bulk of my subscription paid ould be nice too but if this game delivers all it is describing now, then this is the game I personaly have been waiting for. Stay true to your plans and I know your be like Eve and might even be the next WoW in terms of life of the game and popularity.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, this is different in that it's a very limited time opportunity to get in at the ground floor, and I think $1000 is a reasonable price for the perks you get at $100 + Alpha + a lifetime sub.
If we suppose that a sub to this game will run the standard $15/month or $180 a year assuming no "buy game time in bulk" promotions that many game do these days, it will take about 6 years to recoup your $1000 investment assuming no time value of money (which is a fairly reasonable assumption today given that the 5Y Treasury trades at an annual yield of only 0.76%).
So unless the monthly fee will be more than $15, there's no way someone would pay $1000 in advance for 5 years of game time when you can get that paying $900 in $15 monthly installments.
Now I will concede that Alpha is a luxury so maybe it's factoring more into the price point than I notice, but it would be great if Ryan could weigh in on this.
edit: just saw Ryan's post; thanks for the clarification! (I assume you mean the 9 month early enrollment period is free, and then they start paying a regular sub once the game moves into open enrollment. Nonetheless, this should be corrected in the written description!)
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Assuming a future discount of about 4% per year (This is the current rate for long-term loans with little risk of default), and a 12-month subscription cost of $100, the fair price of a permanent subscription would be $2500.
If we try to include an estimate for inflation and the fact that inflation will drive future costs higher, the price goes up. If we discount based on the typical rates for small business loans (6-8% per year), the price goes down. If we estimate inflation at about 2-4% per year, those two effects are roughly a wash.
In other words, $1000 is less than half of what a true lifetime subscription is worth.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Assuming a future discount of about 4% per year (This is the current rate for long-term loans with little risk of default), and a 12-month subscription cost of $100, the fair price of a permanent subscription would be $2500.
If we try to include an estimate for inflation and the fact that inflation will drive future costs higher, the price goes up. If we discount based on the typical rates for small business loans (6-8% per year), the price goes down. If we estimate inflation at about 2-4% per year, those two effects are roughly a wash.
In other words, $1000 is less than half of what a true lifetime subscription is worth.
That's a really good point. If I had $2500 on hand, I'd gladly throw down for a lifetime sub in this kickstarter. I didn't manage my money/christmas would have gotten in the way anyway, but that seems very reasonable.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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The problem with offering a lifetime subscription is twofold.
First, there's a sticker shock issue. People who don't understand the kind of math that DeciusBrutus just did see a figure like $2,500 and think "that's crazy, and if they are that crazy on price, what else are these people crazy about"? It makes us look stupid in the eyes of certain people.
The second issue is that anytime you do "lifetime" anything, it locks you in to a whole set of assumptions which may not remain true. And when the time comes (and it seems to me, it inevitably comes) when you have to break what seems like a promise, especially to someone who paid you a lot of money up front, that creates tremendous ill-will.
If we don't have "lifetime" subscriptions, we also don't have "forever promises" to keep either.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If we don't have "lifetime" subscriptions, we also don't have "forever promises" to keep either.
Also a good point. Under-promise, over-deliver. And if that's what this company is doing, then I can't begin to explain the sounds of excitement I am producing for the finished product.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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That's a really good point. If I had $2500 on hand, I'd gladly throw down for a lifetime sub in this kickstarter. I didn't manage my money/christmas would have gotten in the way anyway, but that seems very reasonable.Assuming a future discount of about 4% per year (This is the current rate for long-term loans with little risk of default), and a 12-month subscription cost of $100, the fair price of a permanent subscription would be $2500.
If we try to include an estimate for inflation and the fact that inflation will drive future costs higher, the price goes up. If we discount based on the typical rates for small business loans (6-8% per year), the price goes down. If we estimate inflation at about 2-4% per year, those two effects are roughly a wash.
In other words, $1000 is less than half of what a true lifetime subscription is worth.
If you put that $2500 in T-bills, then you could cover the subscription for a pretty long time off of the interest. You would probably lose to inflation eventually.
Or you could simply use the capital- if the $100/year number I pulled out of... thin air... is good, you've got 25 years of subscription in the capital alone. As far as I am concerned, if I'm still playing after twenty-five years, I'm hopefully doing well enough with my retirement funds that I can continue to afford the subscription.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is also true. I'll definitely always have the money for the subscription (I'm part of a local gaming organization and, as an officer, pay $10 a month to cover tournaments and prizes and whatnot - we made the point that if you can't afford $10 a month for a hobby, you're probably not that invested in the hobby anyway - it's a lunch or a couple sodas). I just tend to be terrible about not living paycheck to paycheck, despite making 3x my monthly bills. I'm changing this habit (got myself on a budget and I'm STICKING TO IT), but it has tended to screw me out of things I want by way of not having been responsible enough in the past.
Well, this is different in that it's a very limited time opportunity to get in at the ground floor, and I think $1000 is a reasonable price for the perks you get at $100 + Alpha + a lifetime sub.
If we suppose that a sub to this game will run the standard $15/month or $180 a year assuming no "buy game time in bulk" promotions that many game do these days, it will take about 6 years to recoup your $1000 investment assuming no time value of money (which is a fairly reasonable assumption today given that the 5Y Treasury trades at an annual yield of only 0.76%).
So unless the monthly fee will be more than $15, there's no way someone would pay $1000 in advance for 5 years of game time when you can get that paying $900 in $15 monthly installments.
Now I will concede that Alpha is a luxury so maybe it's factoring more into the price point than I notice, but it would be great if Ryan could weigh in on this.
edit: just saw Ryan's post; thanks for the clarification! (I assume you mean the 9 month early enrollment period is free, and then they start paying a regular sub once the game moves into open enrollment. Nonetheless, this should be corrected in the written description!)
it is clearly stated in the art you were looking at early enrollment is free at the alpha level and above. Do not see who you could misinterpret that into a life time subscription. unless of course you simply did not see the white text that said early enrollment above the bright red text for free on the icon you referenced in your original post. No need to change anything when it is on there clear as day, beside as it was pointed out earlier, once a tier has been set and someone makes a pledge it can not be changed. It actualy is a great deal for people that have that kind of money to toss it. you get 9 free months of game play in addition to how ever long alpha lasts. as well as all the other cool stuff. If i had the money to do it, the only thing that would stop me is not being able to bring a budy into early enrollment with me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If we don't have "lifetime" subscriptions, we also don't have "forever promises" to keep either.
Thank you for not offering lifetime subs. Once again Ryan gets it while (every) other company for some reason doesn't. Lifetime subs do nothing but create the potential for ill will.. between players and between the company and players. If not at first it always will eventually.
Thank you for not offering lifetime subs. Once again Ryan gets it while (every) other company for some reason doesn't. Lifetime subs do nothing but create the potential for ill will.. between players and between the company and players. If not at first it always will eventually.
If we don't have "lifetime" subscriptions, we also don't have "forever promises" to keep either.
If only because some of the people that buy them tend to be idiots. people thinks lifetime subscriptions get this special snowflake status when all it does is gives you a subscription you no longer have to pay for for the life time of the game, that is all. any thing assumed after that point is the buyers own fault.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...it is clearly stated in the art you were looking at early enrollment is free at the alpha level and above. Do not see who you could misinterpret that into a life time subscription. unless of course you simply did not see the white text that said early enrollment above the bright red text for free on the icon you referenced in your original post. No need to change anything when it is on there clear as day, beside as it was pointed out earlier, once a tier has been set and someone makes a pledge it can not be changed. It actualy is a great deal for people that have that kind of money to toss it. you get 9 free months of game play in addition to how ever long alpha lasts. as well as all the other cool stuff. If i had the money to do it, the only thing that would stop me is not being able to bring a budy into...
Let us recognize that human beings take in our perceptions through the filter of our expectations, and our understanding it is interpreted through our sentiments, desires, and beliefs. A case in point is a politician's speech: those who agree with the speaker will perceive one thing while opponents perceive something else altogether, even though the speaker said only what was said.
So too with this. One person who is trying to rationalize a potential investment because they cannot really afford it despite their desires will attempt to see additional benefit than is there. It is only human nature. I do it, and if you are human you do it.
...it is clearly stated in the art you were looking at early enrollment is free at the alpha level and above. Do not see who you could misinterpret that into a life time subscription. unless of course you simply did not see the white text that said early enrollment above the bright red text for free on the icon you referenced in your original post. No need to change anything when it is on there clear as day, beside as it was pointed out earlier, once a tier has been set and someone makes a pledge it can not be changed. It actualy is a great deal for people that have that kind of money to toss it. you get 9 free months of game play in addition to how ever long alpha lasts. as well as all the other cool stuff. If i had the money to do it, the only thing that would stop me is not being able to bring a budy into...Let us recognize that human beings take in our perceptions through the filter of our expectations, and our understanding it is interpreted through our sentiments, desires, and beliefs. A case in point is a politician's speech: those who agree with the speaker will perceive one thing while opponents perceive something else altogether, even though the speaker said only what was said.
So too with this. One person who is trying to rationalize a potential investment because they cannot really afford it despite their desires will attempt to see additional benefit than is there. It is only human nature. I do it, and if you are human you do it.
Don't get me wrong, i am not trying to be a jerk about it. But the picture really did leave no room for misinterpretation. hence why i said unless the OP had not seen the white text stating early enrollment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If only because some of the people that buy them tend to be idiots. people thinks lifetime subscriptions get this special snowflake status when all it does is gives you a subscription you no longer have to pay for for the life time of the game, that is all. any thing assumed after that point is the buyers own fault.Thank you for not offering lifetime subs. Once again Ryan gets it while (every) other company for some reason doesn't. Lifetime subs do nothing but create the potential for ill will.. between players and between the company and players. If not at first it always will eventually.
If we don't have "lifetime" subscriptions, we also don't have "forever promises" to keep either.
See even talking about them causes ill will :)
See even talking about them causes ill will :)If only because some of the people that buy them tend to be idiots. people thinks lifetime subscriptions get this special snowflake status when all it does is gives you a subscription you no longer have to pay for for the life time of the game, that is all. any thing assumed after that point is the buyers own fault.Thank you for not offering lifetime subs. Once again Ryan gets it while (every) other company for some reason doesn't. Lifetime subs do nothing but create the potential for ill will.. between players and between the company and players. If not at first it always will eventually.
If we don't have "lifetime" subscriptions, we also don't have "forever promises" to keep either.
I know right!, at least its nowhere near as bad as the flame wars over at swtor forums between collector's edition owners and standard edition owners. speaking of collector's edition i need to find out if PFO is going to have one. a digital download is nice and all but i do love my CE versions with statues or minis and what not and hard disks and maps.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Don't get me wrong, i am not trying to be a jerk about it. But the picture really did leave no room for misinterpretation. hence why i said unless the OP had not seen the white text stating early enrollment.
Yes, I actually did not notice the white "Early Enrollment" text at first.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@htrajan, I looked at the Crowdforger Alpha reward level several times while following this thread, and I didn't ever see the "Early Enrollment Free!" piece of the picture until just now. I'm sure it's been there all along, but there's a ton of data on that page, and it's easy to miss things.
Don't get me wrong, i am not trying to be a jerk about it. But the picture really did leave no room for misinterpretation. hence why i said unless the OP had not seen the white text stating early enrollment.Yes, I actually did not notice the white "Early Enrollment" text at first.
now worries it happens, I did not know early enrollment was requiring a subscription when I first pledged. I do think the graphics are a bit cluttered for the larger reward tiers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I will note that I am a lifetime subscriber to LOTRO and have several kinmates who are as well. I don't agree with the stereotype that lifers are spoiled brats with a sense of entitlement to everything. We knew we were signing up for a "lifetime (of the game) subscription." Nothing more, nothing less. I will say that the $200 at the time was a ridiculous deal considering the best deal now is 1 year for $99.
I do agree that lifetime subs here are a bad idea. What I would like to see, though, would be an ingame item similar to EVE's "extended pilot license", which you could buy in the cash shop and sell ingame for coin. This way, newbies who are daunted by the prospect of amassing coin can "buy" it with real dough and veterans with hordes of coin can benefit from their wealth and purchase game time without using their own money.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What I would like to see, though, would be an ingame item similar to EVE's "extended pilot license", which you could buy in the cash shop and sell ingame for coin.
Is "extended pilot license" the same as PLEX? If so, then this has already been confirmed to be in PFO. You will definitely be able to buy Skill Training Packages (or whatever they call them) for real money and sell them on the market in-game.