Ok, so i've seen thread after thread on flurry of misses, and want to avoid that altogether. I have a way for a monk to get 2-3 attacks a round on a single target, or 2 attacks each on up to 4 targets, starting at level 3, at full bonuses. But, how likely is it for the GM to start having the enemies metagame this out of viability? AoO's always use your full attack bonus, with whatever modifiers (PA, Fight defensive, whatever) on every one, no matter how many you make, so no iterative misses.
This is for PFS play, and I have the option to put him together at level 3, would be Brawler 2/MoMS 1.
Human Monk Quinggong MoMS/Brawler Fighter:
either 8/4 or 4/8
Looking for 3 levels of Fighter for feats, BAB, HP, and close combat weapon training (+1hit/+3 damage), (not a big jump, but if you're gonna take fighter anyways, the damage hit is good for an all unarmed attack build)
MoMS for Panther/Snake combo style.
Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse(to cut down on MAD), Panther Style, Panther Claw, Snake Style, Snake Fang to start. Later Panther Parry, Dodge, Mobility, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Crane Riposte.
Stats: Str 10 Dex 17 Con 13 Int 8 Wis 18 Cha 7
Starting AC 17, Have wand of Mage armor to pass around for a 21.
Tactic is to run past, provoke, Panther Style/claw AoOs (up to wis mod) targets, and with both snake and panther up if they miss I get another AoO (up to dex mod). At 3rd, this will only be d6 damage, will pick up a guided/agile AoMF at level 4 to start getting bonuses, also close combat kicks in at level 4 to make around d6+7/8 per attack. At level 5 pick up dodge/mobility, so AC is now around a 27 (not counting the ability to use sense motive against the BBEG for my AC) for those provoking attacks. At 6, Panther Parry will mean my AoO goes first, if it does damage they take a -2hit/damage for theirs. At 7 Piranha Style, at 9 Crane Style, at 10 Crane Wing, at 11 Crane Riposte, at 12 3 styles at once and on a single target enemy I can hit him: once for my attack, once if he swings at me when i move, once for crane wing/riposte, once for snake fang since he missed, and once if I hit with a counter for snake fang as a swift.
If I go fig8/MoMS4 i'll grab combat style mastery, and Monastic training for 1d10 fists and free action style changes. If the other way i'll lose a feat but won't need those 2, so probably piranha Style for extra damage.
I'll have around 4 counterattacks from wis for panther, another 5 from combat reflexes for normal AoOs, and a solid AC or a maxed out Sense Motive if i need it for a big target.
Trade out for Ki Mystic and Quinggong so I have 1/2 monk + wis +2 Ki and Barkskin, Feather Step. If I go MoMS8 either Gaseous Form or Spring Attack.
For Single Target, you move/provoke, then take your panther attack, if they miss, your snake attack, if that hits, your snake fang swift, and then your normal attack for your turn. For 2-4 possible attacks on a single target at level 3.
Not optimized, but viable? Never gonna throw down the big numbers, but built to set up flanking and do a little to all of them so the AoE/Cleave tactic can work better. And most importantly, what are the odds on the GM metagaming the enemies to not swing at this target no matter how many times he provokes?
Ok, so i've seen thread after thread on flurry of misses, and want to avoid that altogether. I have a way for a monk to get 2-3 attacks a round on a single target, or 2 attacks each on up to 4 targets, starting at level 3, at full bonuses. But, how likely is it for the GM to start having the enemies metagame this out of viability? AoO's always use your full attack bonus, with whatever modifiers (PA, Fight defensive, whatever) on every one, no matter how many you make, so no iterative misses.
This is for PFS play, and I have the option to put him together at level 3, would be Brawler 2/MoMS 1.
** spoiler omitted **...
It's not metagaming as long as the enemies fall for it the first time they see it. After that, they've seen what you do to people who take AoOs for movement, so it's well within their in-game knowledge to avoid it.
i still have no idea why people call it that. it is literally TWF/ITWF/GTWF with a full BAB class and a scaling damage weapon (which is only a minor damage increase, but whatever).
Because the monk lags behind in enhancement, and MAD usually means that their hitting stat is lower than a full BAB class's. That leaves them significantly behind as you get to higher levels. So you might get more attacks than the full BAB class with a two-handed weapon, but you sometimes get less hits and do less damage per hit because damage is relying on static bonuses and critical hits more than dice.
To the OP, if you are relying on AoO's for all those attacks (easy enough with Style feats) remember that you are on 3/4 BAB for those, not your flurry AB.
It's not metagaming as long as the enemies fall for it the first time they see it. After that, they've seen what you do to people who take AoOs for movement, so it's well within their in-game knowledge to avoid it.
AoOs are a meta concept to begin with. No character in-game thinks 'if he doesn't take a five-foot step I'll get a free attack!' Combat is supposed to be a dynamic thing-- It's assumed there are many more swings and feints happening than we actually roll. The ones we roll are just those that actually have the potential to do harm to the enemy. AoOs represent your opponent being unable to properly defend himself momentarily, so you get the free roll.
Actions are also essentially simultaneous, and characters are unaware of where rounds begin and end. Seeing the monk do use this counterattack trick would be hard to distinguish between a monk that just gets lots of attacks running around beating people up...
That said, expect your DM to metagame it, because you most likely annoy him. I would personally go with snake/crane, since you can do the same trick, just more limited, and they are also useful when you're just standing still fighting somebody.
I was accounting for the 3/4 BAB, but that's still equivalent to the normal flurry penalties (Full BAB but -2 on all) for the 12 levels PFS plays to. It's not until level 8 that a monk gets his flurry = to his normal, and then only if he can stand still for the whole round, which at that point in the Rocket-tag DPR race, is unlikely.
The levels of Fighter cover the difference to a +10/5 on his attacks, = to the monks flurry of 10/10/5/5/0 at level 12.
Which means that even while piranha striking and fighting defensively at level 12, his attacks will all be at +8(not counting stat/magic) and doing around +7 damage (not counting magic/stats), with an easy stat bonus of 5-7 to each. While also fighting Defensively and PA the normal monk would be at 7/7/2/2/-3 not counting stats/magic. pretty much anything after the first 2 miss at that point(excluding stellar rolls), unless the enemy is so low AC that they probably weren't a threat anyways.
@johnlocke Dumping Str is gonna hurt my CMB/CMD, and a couple skills/carrying/challenge solving for PFS play. I had considered it, it would give me an 18 dex to start if i took it to 7; or a 14 con or 10 int to not lose skills at an 8, or both at a 7.
I don't understand why people poo-poo on FoB. Think statistically. -2 is essentially a 10% additional miss chance.
If an enemy is hard to hit, the difference between 20% hit chance and 30% hit chance is not a big difference. 2 attacks prevail here because you get two 20% chances to hit instead of one 30% chance.
If an enemy is easy to hit, the difference between 80 to 90 or 90 to 95 (1 always misses) is also very little. So, the extra attack wins again.
Against middling AC enemies is the gray area, where you have to figure out if the extra attack is worth the -2. And if it's not.. Don't use it. But your adds are always better with extra attacks IMO.
People forget this is a game of chance and focus too much on the +/- of the bonuses.
It's TWF with a full-BAB class, but you fall further points behind because the AoMF doesn't progress as quickly as weapon enhancements. Also, the actual full-BAB classes all get extra bonuses to further increase their to-hit and damage (barbarians have rage bonuses to Str, fighters have weapon training, paladins have smites and divine bonds, rangers have favored enemies, etc). Flurry of Blows lets the monk pretend to have full-BAB some of the time, but doesn't actually let the monk catch up to the hit bonuses that real full-BAB classes provide. Monks are also much more MAD than real full-BAB classes. Since they don't get to wear armor or use shields, their AC needs to be bought with their ability scores, and that cuts into their to-hit and/or damage.
It's not even right to look at it as getting "an extra attack", because each of your attacks deals less damage than another martial's attack with a two-handed weapon. Your extra attacks are just playing catch-up to the damage you're missing by not getting 1.5 Str or (until lategame) a 2d6 damage die.
Basically, there are a thousand minor penalties that aren't easy to see if you just take a broad glance at the class on paper but that hurt you heavily when you actually try to play the class in a game.
