I'm working on a Holy Avenger build that will probably end up with 11 to 13 caster levels. I'm focusing on -Channelling and don't really have that much experience with spells. How important are caster levels and is there anything I need to pay attention to so I don't completely nerf my guy?
What class is your character? Depending on the class it can be very important or just important. If you are casting spell on other people caster level is very important because it helps to overcome spell resistance. It also affect the damage and duration of spells. For a paladin it is still important but not as crucial because paladins tend to cast either buff or healing spells. The duration on the buff spells can be important especially at lower levels.
We would need to see more of the build to really give much help. You starting as Paladin or Cleric? Possitive, negative, or both? Buff or attack casting?
If you are making a paladin, I would say the caster levels are not all that important. A melee cleric, not critically important. A buff caster cleric, the caster levels getting important. An offensive caster cleric, the caster levels are vital.
Cleric 4-6 + Cavalier 4-6 (order of the star) and Holy Vindicator 10. Cleric channels negative energy. Probably Calistria. Riding a mount (wolf?) and hoping for as much BAB as possible (18 or 19 at 20th.)
I like the spells that make myself big or hit harder, and a few defensive ones. I also automatically get Inflict Wounds spells, which is a shame as the Vindicator empowers your own healing.
Ok, so you are going for more of a melee battle cleric build. So the caster levels should not be that major of a concern since you are only planning to use the spells for self buffs.
If you ride your wolf and channel negative energy, how do you keep your wolf from dying a quick and painful death caused by your own channel?
@sunbeam: With 4 levels cavalier he can take the horse master feat to get a full level mount. So that seems to be the sweep spot he has to reach.
If you ride your wolf and channel negative energy, how do you keep your wolf from dying a quick and painful death caused by your own channel?
@sunbeam: With 4 levels cavalier he can take the horse master feat to get a full level mount. So that seems to be the sweep spot he has to reach.
Yup, and Selective Channeling allows me to ignore my mount. Order of the Cavalier allows me to count 1/2 Cav levels as Cleric for Channeling purposes. Challenge 2/day.
I'm not much of a stand back and cast type of player. I've done it once and it's too much selection in the moment. I prefer dishing damage. However, here I'll have spells. (so much harder to look up than feats are) I'm viewing spells as a bonus as opposed to a necessity. Probably not doing the class right in that case.
good point, forgot about htat.
Well, if he's going for a channel focused build, he almost has to pump his cha up at least as high as paladin would.
Clerics are on the tier 1 list for a reason. Their spellcasting is quite powerful, and if your DM allows certain cheese from 3.5, and/or certain spells, you can get a very impressive character. Particularly through abuse of divine metamagic.
I would go one of two paths here.
The Spellcaster: Cavalier 4/Holy Vindicator 10/Cleric 6 nets you 7th level spells, plus challenge 2/day, and some other nice abilities. I would even go so far as to dump Cavalier down to one or two levels so that you can hit 8th level spells. However, the Vindicator PrC is obviously not designed as a "full caster" class.
The Cavalier: Cavalier 6/Holy Vindicator 10/Cleric 4 nets you 6th level spells, so they will be used as low level buffs and some slight healing. Your main focus would be attacking, and you get banner to help your allies, plus hitting the Cavalier bonus feat.
Other options are to dump cleric even more, going higher in Cavalier, or dipping fighter for the two bonus feats. A third option is:
Sir Charisma: Oracle 5/Holy Vindicator 10/Paladin 2/Cavalier 3. This gives you the save boost, smite evil, and bases everything off of charisma. It also gives you 6th level spells. You can safely dump wisdom, intelligence, and maybe dexterity.
I'm going for a kind of "create your own Chaotic Neutral Paladin", the Cavalier option you mention is the most attractive to me. +Channel Profane bonus to AC (+9 AC at 20th level), burst damage effects vs crowds, Channel smite otherwise, and excellent reach. (Large mount with a lance to charge, or a whip if charging is impractical, gives a huge range.)
The Sir Charisma build is fascinating, although I'd probably have to tack it from an Antipaladin point of view to get what I want. Why oracle 5? The 4th level of Cavalier allows a full level mount.
Strictly Pathfinder in terms of spells. Some mechanics can be borrowed where no clear correlation exists but then limited to very minor things, nothing major like class features, feats, or spells.
I don't know spells that well, buff spells especially. If it helps I was thinking of being a Gnome to get that bonus to Necromancy spell DCs. If it doesn't I could keep the speak with animals and talk with my wolf.
Ah, if you want to be more like a Paladin, you can sacrifice the spellcasting even more.
Cavalier 4/Anti-paladin 2/Holy Vindicator 10/Oracle 1/3 spare levels
This nets you the Charisma bonuses, the mount, and 4th level spells. In addition, it comes with 3 spare levels for more Cavalier, or maybe a dip into fighter. A feat to consider if you are taking this build is Noble Scion, which gives you Charisma to initiative if you take the "Scion of War" option. Noble Scion is in the Guide to the Inner Sea.
Now you have Cavalier bonuses, saving throws, spellcasting, and initiative all keyed off of charisma. Pour a lot of points into strength and constitution, and keep dex, wis and int low.
Gnome seems a bit ridiculous, but go with what you want. Gnomes do give +2 to constitution and charisma, but the downside if of course the strength penalty. It is a workable build though, and would let you ride your wolf perhaps...even in dungeon.
If being an Anti-Paladin and a Paladin is out, talk to your DM about letting you be a "Chaos Paladin." CN Paladin, just reflavor and retext a few sentences and you're good to go. Detect evil to detect law for instance, and smite evil to smite law. The key of course is the save bonuses.
In terms of buffs, look for long lasting buffs, or things that would help a lot in combat. Since spellcasting is not your main goal, avoid any utility spells. You can however, use wands of healing, which is very nice. For your Oracle curse, consider wasting. It has a very minor penalty, and very minor bonuses, but is better than a hard-hitting curse.
Good luck with your character! Sorry if the wall of text is too long.
Dot.
That is terrifying! And a prime candidate for going undead. Get CHA to HP also, as well as hefty bonuses to everything and the ability to regenerate after a few days if ya go Graveknight. Very wicked.
Waitaminnit.... I don't know where the channel energy is coming from exactly. Oracle? Life only gets positive energy (bleh) and Bones can't qualify as it can't take the feat prereq for Holy Vindicator.
Why not just take the four levels of Antipaladin to get Channel Negative and spells, four levels of Cav for a Mount and challenges, then go from there. There's 2/day smite good, 2/day smite any (IE, challenge, which probably even stacks if you have both at once) full mount, but only... 3+Cha Touches, which means half that many channels. Not a lot.
Sadly I don't have an evil campaign coming up just yet. CN is fine, but evil can ruffle feathers.
I still think Cleric is the best way to get the channels. It's a static 3+Cha as opposed to level/2 based with paladins. You also don't have half as many uses that a paladin would.
Cler 4/Cav 6/HV 10 is probably how I'll do it if I can't figure out an antipaladin route.
And don't worry for a wall of text. I'm a fast reader, and I wrote one too.