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There was a discussion about the cost of raise dead that took a turn that kind of confused me, and I think it may be a source of some of the divsions in the game.
Raising your character from the dead is rarely about how much it costs in games I've played it.
You find a way to do it, because you care about your character. And more importantly, because your party cares about them.
You are a band of brothers/sisters. You bond through these adventures where you risk everything to save people you care about. Sure, they aren't real, but they are real when you are at the table.
When things are going well, the table is at damn near panic when one of our "friends" is a dice roll from death. The idea of just rolling up another characer is almost crazy talk. Of course you are going to spend whatever it takes to bring him back (and play behind a level in the old days) because he's your friend and that is what you do.
Are there times you are ready to move on, sure. Sometimes you don't bring them back, because you are ready to move on and change characters.
But that is rare (and in our games, can have consequeces...we have had old PCs that died be brought back as undead challenges...). It is rare because when your friend dies, and you can bring them back, you do it because you care.
The math isn't the question.
If I play with a GM or other players who aren't invested in creating a world that matters, I feel like that game failed. If I can't get the players to care, I feel like I have failed as a GM. If I can't make a PC the table feels is part of the setting and matters enough to save, I feel like I have failed as a player.
I am not saying it is wrongbadfun if it is about the math for your table, but it seems so strange to me to think that way about a fellow adventurer.
Thoughts?
I am lucky enough to have groups that care more about RPing and Worldbuilding.
I think that is the main reasons why these kinds of Games exist. It gives us an escape into a new life and world to experience.
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At what level does this actually become a viable option, though?
I've had 4th level characters that I (and my group) really liked, but they didn't exactly have the means to make this happen when they got splortched.
Agreed. Some people DO play for character optimization, for the challenge of combat, for the numbers and the statistics, etc. Which is fine. We all enjoy different things about the game.
But for the most part, the game is about losing yourself in the characters, the NPCs, the setting, the story, and everything else that goes on. It's a culmination of everything that happens in a game.
And when this culmination succeeds and part of you becomes invested in your character and the campaign he's in... that is the point where the statistics, numbers, math, rules, etc. just become minor tools used to drive the game.
You shouldn't WANT to roll a new character. You SHOULD be upset if your character dies. You should WANT to be able to play your character again, even with the GP cost and penalties that come with the process... the practicality of "rolling a new character instead" just doesn't even matter anymore. It's not a question. The point is, that is YOUR character, he's been through so much stuff, and he has so many goals, and you want to make it all happen for him - or at least give it another shot!
Being emotionally invested in your character and the campaign. That's what makes the game special. If it's not there, then it's not there... if you're rolling up another character, then you're just going through the motions at that point (or maybe you just like experimenting with character builds, which is OK too).
Another thing is, as a DM, it's awkward to treat new characters as "part of the group" with certain NPC interactions. Like, "Oh, you're back! It's good to see all of you again! Do you remember everything we talked about? Wait... where are your other friends? Who are these new guys?" Just little minor annoyances like this, and new characters needing to be filled in on everything that's happened... it's just not the same as an original character who's been there the whole time.
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At what level does this actually become a viable option, though?
I've had 4th level characters that I (and my group) really liked, but they didn't exactly have the means to make this happen when they got splortched.
Depending on the setting, you could do this with a 4th level party if you have a GM willing to have that become an adventure.
For example, you take the body a temple in a major city (where a high level cleric would presumably be) and see if you can do something for them in a short period of time worth bringing your friend back. Someone in the temple is instant short term PC while you save the main PC.
Similarly find a high level druid...one of my favorite characters died (human) and was reincarnated as a half-elf. The GM worked this into the campaign at higher level as being part of fulfilling a prophesy in a larger questline.
That was some good GMing on his part.
It shouldn't be impossible, but it should be meaningful.
Heck, I had a character sell his soul to Asmodeus to bring back his Nakama/Comrade.
Why? The dead character had taken an arrow for him on more than one occasion. Outside of that the characters didn't get along well. Though they formed a friendship after that event.
I love making character but I also love stories and such. I only make a new PC when I absolutely need to or I want to play the story out from a new perspective.
At what level does this actually become a viable option, though?
I've had 4th level characters that I (and my group) really liked, but they didn't exactly have the means to make this happen when they got splortched.Depending on the setting, you could do this with a 4th level party if you have a GM willing to have that become an adventure.
For example, you take the body a temple in a major city (where a high level cleric would presumably be) and see if you can do something for them in a short period of time worth bringing your friend back. Someone in the temple is instant short term PC while you save the main PC.
Similarly find a high level druid...one of my favorite characters died (human) and was reincarnated as a half-elf. The GM worked this into the campaign at higher level as being part of fulfilling a prophesy in a larger questline.
That was some good GMing on his part.
It shouldn't be impossible, but it should be meaningful.
Yeah, I get you on all that. I think it's more up to the GM though to recognize the sadfase on all his group members and try to figure something out, in that regard, or at least to roll with the players as they cart around Deadguy's (or -girl's) body. In one game I play in, I could totally see this happening. In the other, I would just get a flat-out hardcore stare from the GM while he slowly chews up my dead character's playsheet while making nom nom noises.
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I think that is the sign of a good GM. I know I have a reputation on here as a rules hardass, but I am actually all about making a player earn it specifically because that is more rewarding for everyone involved.
I think you should always give your players a way to get to anything reasonable that they really want. But you shouldn't just hand things to them because they want it.
If the party is heartbroken over the loss of a player, a good GM is thrilled at the opportunity to have a group fully invested in a potential quest.
I have built some characters that I really like. A few that I don't. Some that I have truly loved. Only one of those has died.
I didn't resurrect him.
It would have cheapened the sacrifice.
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I have built some characters that I really like. A few that I don't. Some that I have truly loved. Only one of those has died.
I didn't resurrect him.
It would have cheapened the sacrifice.
The other day I had a character I really enjoyed die in an absolutely wonderful and epic way. And so I asked the party not to bring him back, as it was a perfect way to close that characters story arc.
I think that calculation is different that "Well, if we sell his loot and allow him to create a new character with WBL, the party gains..."
That is the stuff that makes me kind of sad for that table. I am sure they are having fun, but I would be miserable at that table.
I normally have them comeback at level but with WBL=(Lowest Party Member level)-1.
But I normally take Wealth By Level and seperate it out into the dungeons that way if they hit every dungeon by Level 20 they should have WBL of the value I decided on.
Gotta love getting attached to NPCs or killing a Necessary NPC.
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To take it to another step on the storyline's emotional scale, I think it can add a tremendous amount to the story when the character is raised/resurrected, because that experience is not trauma-free - both in how they died and potential guilt/blame for those that lived. Really some powerful role-playing there for the group that wants to delve into that a bit.
As a DM in a multi-year campaign (2nd Ed) I had to experience my best friend's longtime character die in a showdown battle (1-failed a death save), and there was never any thought about not bringing him back of course. What I was surprised at is how the other characters dealt with it, including some good drama interaction with loss and blame over how he died and if they were shortsighted or reckless in starting the conflict, etc. We actually devoted the next session just on the RP aspects and the resurrection event, not to mention that it changed the character's perception and outlook of things after he came back. Really interesting stuff that had an organic life of its own, and in no way could have been scripted by any plans that I had for the story.
Depending on the setting, you could do this with a 4th level party if you have a GM willing to have that become an adventure.For example, you take the body a temple in a major city (where a high level cleric would presumably be) and see if you can do something for them in a short period of time worth bringing your friend back. Someone in the temple is instant short term PC while you save the main PC.
We did a little exercise just like that about a year ago. My poor fighter was splortched but good, and my friends decide to try to resurrect her. I played one of the clerics from the temple we had placed the fighter's body in, tasked with helping the heroes while they went out stomping around to get the means to bring my fighter back. By the time we had the gold and the macguffin necessary, however, we all kinda liked the cleric better. :P
We raised my fighter anyway and she went on to stay and serve as a temple guard in gratitude.
Silly stories.
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I think we're looking at paying for at least a raise and two reincarnations in our current campaign.
All for NPCs.
We do this all the time. A GM should be proud if the party forgets about loot and becomes so immersed that they feel they must save the fake people.
That is a well run game.
Unless it's because there's nothing else to do.
It's not that hard to create a situation where a seemingly important NPC dies, the party happens to have some cash, has nothing to do with it and so they start feeling like, well, hey! I guess WE could bring that guy back to life? The town cheers for the "heroes".
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I think we're looking at paying for at least a raise and two reincarnations in our current campaign.
All for NPCs.
We do this all the time. A GM should be proud if the party forgets about loot and becomes so immersed that they feel they must save the fake people.
That is a well run game.
Unless it's because there's nothing else to do.
It's not that hard to create a situation where a seemingly important NPC dies, the party happens to have some cash, has nothing to do with it and so they start feeling like, well, hey! I guess WE could bring that guy back to life? The town cheers for the "heroes".
In our specific case, at least two of the NPCs involved don't feel like they're critical to the plot of the campaign, and the other doesn't particularly feel that way either. It's primarily personal attachments at play here, along with certain PCs feeling responsible for their deaths.
As for convenience, we're actually far from any real safe haven it seems, and our resources are stretched pretty thin after a hellacious months-long trek across some hilariously dangerous territory. First thing I did was try to figure what my gear was worth to see how much of the cost I could cover without eating into the resources that are keeping all of the other NPCs depending on us alive. And we still don't know how far we have to go before we can find someone capable of bringing them back.
We all enjoy different things about the game.
But for the most part, the game is about losing yourself in the characters, the NPCs, the setting, the story, and everything else that goes on. It's a culmination of everything that happens in a game.
And when this culmination succeeds and part of you becomes invested in your character and the campaign he's in... that is the point where the statistics, numbers, math, rules, etc. just become minor tools used to drive the game.
You shouldn't WANT to roll a new character. You SHOULD be upset if your character dies. You should WANT to be able to play your character again, even with the GP cost and penalties that come with the process... the practicality of "rolling a new character instead" just doesn't even matter anymore. It's not a question. The point is, that is YOUR character, he's been through so much stuff, and he has so many goals, and you want to make it all happen for him - or at least give it another shot!
Being emotionally invested in your character and the campaign. That's what makes the game special. If it's not there, then it's not there... if you're rolling up another character, then you're just going through the motions at that point (or maybe you just like experimenting with character builds, which is OK too).
Your first line is "we all enjoy different things about the game," then the whole rest of your post is ranting about if people don't appreciate the same things as you about the game, they're doing it wrong.
I'm glad I came to this thread. It brightens my day.
It's funny how attitudes about coming back from the dead can change within a group over the course of a campaign.
In one game, our beloved fighter died while defending his home against marauding orcs. His death was much lamented, so much so that when news of his resurrection reached the masses, the celebration over his return lasted an entire week. It was a momentous occasion.
Fast-forward some months later. Death is a speed bump: a quick teleport to the NPC high priest, a smack on the head with his rod of resurrection, and back to the adventure. Not that the change was bad---we certainly developed a gallows humor over it---but we recognized the shift in attitude.
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Your first line is "we all enjoy different things about the game," then the whole rest of your post is ranting about if people don't appreciate the same things as you about the game, they're doing it wrong.We all enjoy different things about the game.
But for the most part, the game is about losing yourself in the characters, the NPCs, the setting, the story, and everything else that goes on. It's a culmination of everything that happens in a game.
And when this culmination succeeds and part of you becomes invested in your character and the campaign he's in... that is the point where the statistics, numbers, math, rules, etc. just become minor tools used to drive the game.
You shouldn't WANT to roll a new character. You SHOULD be upset if your character dies. You should WANT to be able to play your character again, even with the GP cost and penalties that come with the process... the practicality of "rolling a new character instead" just doesn't even matter anymore. It's not a question. The point is, that is YOUR character, he's been through so much stuff, and he has so many goals, and you want to make it all happen for him - or at least give it another shot!
Being emotionally invested in your character and the campaign. That's what makes the game special. If it's not there, then it's not there... if you're rolling up another character, then you're just going through the motions at that point (or maybe you just like experimenting with character builds, which is OK too).
Do you need a hug?
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It's funny how attitudes about coming back from the dead can change within a group over the course of a campaign.
In one game, our beloved fighter died while defending his home against marauding orcs. His death was much lamented, so much so that when news of his resurrection reached the masses, the celebration over his return lasted an entire week. It was a momentous occasion.
Fast-forward some months later. Death is a speed bump: a quick teleport to the NPC high priest, a smack on the head with his rod of resurrection, and back to the adventure. Not that the change was bad---we certainly developed a gallows humor over it---but we recognized the shift in attitude.
Agreed, which is why I kind of miss the level loss. One of the GMs I play with still runs it that way and I'm thinking I might go back as well, after discussing it with the group.
I think something is lost when death isn't a real penalty anymore.
Nope. She gunned down the cleric at the same time. They ran like little girls.
Priceless... Please tell me none of them were dwarves.
Good. My current Table use PC is a Dwarf who would sooner die than run especially when the enemy killed his Nakama.
Surprisingly, He hasn't been killed once. He is a Dwarf Monk 5 right now. He has only been reduced to 1 HP once. By a bloody goblin.