Goblin Squad Member
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What's your experience with mmorpgs Kiromir, if you do not mind me asking?
I read the description of the Pathfinder MMO. It sounds interesting, but all mmorpg's advertise that their product is new and different to attact a customer base. In the end they tend to turn out to follow the same model
100% true.
Pathfinder Online follows the sandbox model. By comparison many themepark mmorpgs follow a themepark model:
1. Level 1-max. your character following xp gains
2. Max level: Do raids with groups for more gear.
You can wipe all the above away as Pathfinder does not work like that: This presentation may be of interest (and "further reading" if you really want!):
The endless sandbox vs the safe theme park.
What's the difference between "Theme Park" and "Sandbox" MMORPGs?
Before I go on I think the term 'End game' needs defining, as it does carry a certain meaning which I think has been blurred and confused by its use gamers and developers alike.
end·game also end game (ndgm)
n.
1. Games The final stage of a chess game after most of the pieces have been removed from the board.
2. The final stage of an extended process or course of events: the diplomatic endgame that led to the treaty.
Note that the End game is not the End of the game, it is the final stage of the game, before a victory condition is realised. This is where the confusion in the term begins, as many believe that the two are the same.
WoW as a Theme Park MMO has a blatant End Game, Raiding and Arena. The game doesn't finish when you reach 80, as I said for many people that's when the game really begins. Hitting max level and finally being able to start raiding, and competing in Arena.
For games like Darkfall or Mortal Online, the definitive End Game line can be come blurred or lost. Some would argue it doesn't exist at all, because there is no levelling, no goal set by the game itself, how can there be any End Game? My argument would be, as much as the content is player driven, so is the end game. If I desire to become a Mage and cast powerful magic, I would go off and adventure, finding spells and learning magic until I am satisfied I know enough to call myself a great mage. Then I'm in the End Game, I reached my goal (in wow this would be max level), and I can now focus on just PvP or joining a guild that hunt dragons in the world. However I can get bored and decide I want to be an assassin now, I go off and start learning that, so Im no longer in the end game until I reach my new goal.
I think that adds the context to the KS description, you're after
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Goblin Squad Member
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AvenaOats gave all the important links.
The Mi-Go are a (likely) fictual creation of H.P.Lovecraft and are extraterrestial beings with strange technology. Not sure what Arlock wanted to say by mentioning it, though.
The difference between PFO and WoW/EQ/AION.... in short:
In WoW you level to max level, most likely solo and then need a group to experience the end game content which will be raids that give you items to experience the next tougher raids.
In PFO there will be no levelling up as you train your skills automatically even by being logged off. The economy is purely player driven, everything comes from players. The endgame is that you are part of a guild that builds structures on their own territory and tries to expand and defend it from other player guilds. There will be PvE content in the form of dungeons but these will not be the main focus of the game.
Totally different for sure.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the beauty of this game is we will be in the "endgame" from the start.
The "endgame" activities are, being a part of a community that evolves based on your actions, building things, running businesses, waging wars, interacting with other players, roleplaying, exploring, trading, being a bandit, hunting bandits, being a soldier, leading soldiers etc. The term the developers keep giving us is "Meaningful player interaction."
But guess what you'll be doing while you push towards the "endgame"? The exact same thing. True you may not be a strong, you may not have as much money, and you may not be able to build quite as neat of things. But you can start doing the kind of activities you want to take part in from the moment you step into this game's world.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to see raid style monsters, big dragons and the like, maybe the occasional demon prince or lesser god as content, but not for epic loot, but because they'll destroy your town if you don't.
Sure, elder dragon hide might be a useful resource to make some rare armor and turn the head and feet into trophies for the town (crafted of course) but never be a necessary part of the game.
But "endgame" is years away, literally, as it'll take that long to get your character to that sort of level
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, I imaging as we see more and more powerful player build and player run realms that there will be more and more powerful monsters rearing their ugly heads that threaten not to destroy you hard earned buildings (that is reserved for other players) but a a major pain when trying to mine the resources you need to pay upkeep for your lovely little city.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But "endgame" is years away, literally, as it'll take that long to get your character to that sort of level
I really hope you're wrong. With the diminished power curve, players should be able to make up for the "level disparity" with numbers. If your settlement is under threat of destruction, I want to think that the members will get together to defend it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to see raid style monsters, big dragons and the like, maybe the occasional demon prince or lesser god as content, but not for epic loot, but because they'll destroy your town if you don't.
Sure, elder dragon hide might be a useful resource to make some rare armor and turn the head and feet into trophies for the town (crafted of course) but never be a necessary part of the game.
But "endgame" is years away, literally, as it'll take that long to get your character to that sort of level
They have talked about this kind of stuff and there will be epic NPCs. Outside of dungeons the "endgame" starts after character creation though. There is no group size limit, so there is no point not taking a fresh character along with you to go slay the mighty dragon. The guy who has reached capstone and is wearing all adamantine gear is going to be more valuable in that fight most likely, but there is still no disadvantage to bringing everyone who wants to come.
This may or may not be the case for dungeons. Dungeons might have a size limit. Or some might have them and others won't. We don't have a solid statement on that yet (Unless Nihimon knows of one.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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But "endgame" is years away, literally, as it'll take that long to get your character to that sort of levelI really hope you're wrong. With the diminished power curve, players should be able to make up for the "level disparity" with numbers. If your settlement is under threat of destruction, I want to think that the members will get together to defend it.
I just mean that it's meant to take something like 2.5 years to fully master a class, which means there 2.5 years before they actually need to add anything for players other that ability level.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Skill-based as opposed to level based - does this mean characters will focus on learning all skills of a class or will players select from available skills and decide which ones to develop? In other words, would a barbarian be a barbarian be a bararian, or would each barbarian have a unique build depending on what skills the player focused on?
Each barbarian will be unique. In-fact you don't choose a class on character creation. You start training skills and once you gain the requirements for a level in an archetype you get it.
So I start out and I decide I want heavy armor, a bit of divine casting, and diplomacy skills. That may give me the requirements for level 1 paladin so now I'm a level 1 paladin.
I could also start out and decide I want an animal companion, heavy armor and a two handed sword, and the ability to change into a wolf. Those meet the prerequisites for level 1 fighter and level 1 druid so now I have those.
There are a limited number of ability slots I have though. Keeping within 1 archetype generally will give me some good abilities meant to work together, and there are bonuses for using only abilities available to a certain archetype.
In the end though those bonuses aren't meant to force me to choose an archetype. Just make sure multi-archetype characters aren't overpowered.
So there is A LOT of wiggle room on how to build your character. Both within an archetype, and through having multiple of them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the beauty of this game is we will be in the "endgame" from the start.
The "endgame" activities are, being a part of a community that evolves based on your actions, building things, running businesses, waging wars, interacting with other players, roleplaying, exploring, trading, being a bandit, hunting bandits, being a soldier, leading soldiers etc. The term the developers keep giving us is "Meaningful player interaction."
But guess what you'll be doing while you push towards the "endgame"? The exact same thing. True you may not be a strong, you may not have as much money, and you may not be able to build quite as neat of things. But you can start doing the kind of activities you want to take part in from the moment you step into this game's world.
I like this explanation and have used it many times talking to other friends about sandbox games in general and PFO in particular. Especially to friends who have never played a sandbox style game like Ultima Online, EvE and (pre NGE) SWG.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This may or may not be the case for dungeons. Dungeons might have a size limit. Or some might have them and others won't. We don't have a solid statement on that yet (Unless Nihimon knows of one.)
LOL (really, I'm laughing)
I love that Nihimon is now the Absolute Truth with which we all now hedge our statements...
I know Nihimon has noticed his new celebrity status; I just hope he gets at least half as much enjoyment out of it as I do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know Nihimon has noticed his new celebrity status; I just hope he gets at least half as much enjoyment out of it as I do.
I've noticed, but to be honest I'd much rather be known as the guy who remembers a lot of what's been discussed and has the time and patience to go digging for links. :)
And for the record, Andius is right. We really don't have a solid statement on group sizes in dungeons and such.
They've told us Chartered Companies will have a max size of 24 characters. I kind of expect that to be the max group size, as well. And I kind of expect most of the Theme Park Content to be generally open to any size group. But that's all just based on personal hunches.
I have a strong hope that most of the Dungeon Content will be accessible to variable-sized groups to cut down on people being left out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know Nihimon has noticed his new celebrity status; I just hope he gets at least half as much enjoyment out of it as I do.I've noticed, but to be honest I'd much rather be known as the guy who remembers a lot of what's been discussed and has the time and patience to go digging for links. :)
And for the record, Andius is right. We really don't have a solid statement on group sizes in dungeons and such.
They've told us Chartered Companies will have a max size of 24 characters. I kind of expect that to be the max group size, as well. And I kind of expect most of the Theme Park Content to be generally open to any size group. But that's all just based on personal hunches.
I have a strong hope that most of the Dungeon Content will be accessible to variable-sized groups to cut down on people being left out.
Last I knew, the most-specific they got about the size of CCs was 'dozens'. 'Two dozen' is much more specific; could I bother you to link that to me? I can't believe I missed that...
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Goblin Squad Member
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End game content for a sandbox is going to be what you, the player wants it to be.
For some it will be creating their own kingdom, the alliances involved with it and the politics and war to defend it.
For others it will be doing dungeons for materials, items and then sell to buy the new gear
others it will be gathering and then crafting followed with trade to make money.
And for others it will be pirating aka being a bandit etc.
So, I think the main question is going to be, what do you as a player want to be endgame content for yourself?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Last I knew, the most-specific they got about the size of CCs was 'dozens'. 'Two dozen' is much more specific; could I bother you to link that to me? I can't believe I missed that...
That two dozen was actually an upper limit on party sizes in the Looking for Group blog: "Parties will typically be small, just a few characters. We haven't picked an upper limit, but expect it to be only a couple of dozen characters at most." Chartered Companies were a bit bigger: "They can grow to be quite large, on the order of several dozen characters (exact sizes have yet to be determined)."
Granted, I'm slowly working my way up the blog and they may have changed their minds.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Last I knew, the most-specific they got about the size of CCs was 'dozens'. 'Two dozen' is much more specific; could I bother you to link that to me? I can't believe I missed that...
Drakhan Valane did an admirable job, but as will often be the case with a project like this, information changes or gets more specific over time.
From Goblinworks Blog: Put It in Writing:
do you have any guess what you foresee as the upper size limit of a Chartered Company?My gut instinct is something like 2 dozen characters.
Of course, re-reading that just now, it's not as absolute as I remembered it being...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've read through that thread now . . . and I'm just thoroughly confused. It sounds like Chartered Companies are very niche things and guilds more like The Empyrean Order will be largely out-of-game entities with little meaning in-game.
I think the empyrean order will be more like a kingdom, which is an in game mechanic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally, I'd be much more comfortable with a max player size at four dozen. Even if most groups don't end up filling to the max, what's the downside?
I also believe that since that blog, the devs (maybe not Ryan?) have indicated that they believe settlements will consist of thousands of players (1000-2000?). I wonder how much the 'basics' have changed, considering that the game is now being designed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Isn't settlements one of the core concepts of the game? It seems like it's vital to the whole thing, without it there's no sand in the sand box.
They will hold of on finishing the work on/allowing players to build settlements until player groups have both the economic means and the requisite skill training to run a settlement.
This is part of the reason why they can do 'early access.' Players won't reach the pinnacle of development until 2.5 years into the game, and so they don't have to actually have systems in place until players have the ability to use them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've read through that thread now . . . and I'm just thoroughly confused. It sounds like Chartered Companies are very niche things and guilds more like The Empyrean Order will be largely out-of-game entities with little meaning in-game.
That is exactly the realization that a lot of us came to after that blog. You'll notice that most of the "guilds" that have announced themselves here (see Guild Recruitment & Helpful Links) did so as "Chartered Companies". That was back when we all kind of assumed (despite Ryan clearly stating "a few dozen members") that CCs would map to what we thought of as "guilds". Since then, it's become obvious that, for larger guilds anyway, the only viable form of organization is outside the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Isn't settlements one of the core concepts of the game? It seems like it's vital to the whole thing, without it there's no sand in the sand box.They will hold of on finishing the work on/allowing players to build settlements until player groups have both the economic means and the requisite skill training to run a settlement.
This is part of the reason why they can do 'early access.' Players won't reach the pinnacle of development until 2.5 years into the game, and so they don't have to actually have systems in place until players have the ability to use them.
I think it begs a few questions. Is 2.5 years the time to master a skill, or to master a class? How many skills in a class?
And for chartered company numbers, are they restrictions, or is that how big the expect the average one to be?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Jameow, 2.5 years was given as the time the "first" players would be maxing out their particular class (role). Players who dabble in other things like Harvesting/Crafting will likely take longer. And I doubt even the devs could answer "how many skills in a class?"
As I understand it, 24 characters (or whatever they end up at) will be the maximum size for a Chartered Company. I believe Ryan expects the vast majority of them to be less than 10 characters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Jameow, 2.5 years was given as the time the "first" players would be maxing out their particular class (role). Players who dabble in other things like Harvesting/Crafting will likely take longer. And I doubt even the devs could answer "how many skills in a class?"
As I understand it, 24 characters (or whatever they end up at) will be the maximum size for a Chartered Company. I believe Ryan expects the vast majority of them to be less than 10 characters.
So what does 2.5 years actually MEAN then? Are we going to see a large diversity in roles early on as people focus on different skills that gradually converge as they master the skills of that role? Or a staggered progression as people work all the skills, so you go months at a time with no improvement to your weapon skill?(for example)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm pretty sure that the idea is that there will be a wide array of skills in an archetype, and two people of the same archetype with 20 merit badges will likely have different archetypal abilities/skills/feats.
There will also be skills/abilities/feats that are not specific to an archetype.
The point that I was trying to make, though, is that there will be a minimum amount of time to reach certain points in character development.
This means that they don't need to actually have 'settlement building' mechanics finished and in the game until players have the abilities/skills/feats to do so. I expect that they will patch in settlement building shortly before or shortly after the players that bee-lined for them get the merit badges for it; that, or they may wait until a group of players gets close to accumulating whatever initial wealth will be required in order to start building a settlement.
It also means they don't need to finish the animations for 20th badge skills until 2.5 years into the game, when the first players will reach that milestone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm pretty sure that the idea is that there will be a wide array of skills in an archetype, and two people of the same archetype with 20 merit badges will likely have different archetypal abilities/skills/feats.
There will also be skills/abilities/feats that are not specific to an archetype.
The point that I was trying to make, though, is that there will be a minimum amount of time to reach certain points in character development.
This means that they don't need to actually have 'settlement building' mechanics finished and in the game until players have the abilities/skills/feats to do so. I expect that they will patch in settlement building shortly before or shortly after the players that bee-lined for them get the merit badges for it; that, or they may wait until a group of players gets close to accumulating whatever initial wealth will be required in order to start building a settlement.
Tangentially, it also means they don't need to finish the animations for 20th badge skills until 2.5 years into the game, when the first players will reach that milestone.
I hope this is the case, but as for settlement building, it depends on what skills if any are needed. If specific specialized skills are needed (I'm thinking like politician In swg, a specialized skill at for that purpose, as opposed to crafting for the individual parts like carpentry etc)
You have the problem that you have skills that can't be developed or raised until the content is there, which means even longer before you can develop it.