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I don't think I've ever seen it resolved exactly how the Rake w/ Grapple works.
It says you get these extra 2 natural attacks... which would normally mean you need to Full Attack to use them,
and since it doesn't give some other action to use these natural attacks, that would seem to be the case.
Which is fine enough, you Grab/Grapple the target, and on next round can do the Rake attacks during a Full Attack, probably meaning you don't Maintain during that round, but the target should still be Grappled until you DON'T maintain in that round... So you are still getting the benefit of the target's DEX being penalized from Grapple, and during your full attack you can trigger another Grab attack.
But some people seemed to 'feel' that the 2 rake attacks happen 'for free' as part of the maintain options for grapple... even though it doesn't actually directly say the rake attacks are added on to the maintain options (e.g. how Constrict happens on a Grapple check), it just mentions them as 'the options available to grapples'. Of course, casting a spell is also an option available to grapplers (if a poor choice, due to concentration), as is taking a full attack action...
It seems like either option 'works' fine, Full Attacking for damage (and probably re-initiating another Grab) seems like a good tactic for creatures like Tigers, and adding the Rake attacks into the Full Attack is in line with how Natural Attacks work (which Claws are, unlike Constrict) and how Rake plays out during Pounce.
...But who knows... FAQ?
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Also related to this... Are all the 'free action to do special thing on an attack' abilities (Trip, Rock Throwing, etc) meant to be limited to only on the creature's turn, i.e. not AoOs (when you can't take other actions)? Is this going to see Errata to allow AoO's?
I didn't even get that it is two rakes. I thought it was more like rend.
hm, i had always thought it was two separate attacks/ attack rolls, but that you thought otherwise definitely tells me the ability is alot vaguer than it should be.
if this is the FAQ thread for rake, i thought i'd repeat your mention of the implication of rake granting bonus "Claw" attacks, instead of Talons (as normally is associated with hind legs): normally the only difference is not being able to do bludgeoning damage, but being the same natural attack type means that a tiger (etc) taking Improved Natural Attack: Claws would apply the damage increase to their 2x normal Claws AND the 2x Rake Claws, double the normal benefit of the Feat... If Rake used Talons, that wouldn't be the case.
I'm not very good at reading these days. Missing lots of things in the texts I "look at".
It clearly states that it's two and that it is made with claws, not talons. answering something else I was unsure of.
Thanks.
Way weve always played it is:
Kitty charges/pounces target and gets bite/claw/claw/rake/rake and establishes grapple with its bite attack. Round over..
Kitty rolls to maintain grapple with grapple negs in place and if successful does bite damage automatically and triggers 2 rake attacks with the grappled condition negatives in place.. round over
If unsuccessful can attack bite/claw/claw and attempt to grapple with bite.. round over..
This may be wrong but its how we play it..
Kitty rolls to maintain grapple with grapple negs in place
The –2 penalty from the grappled condition doesn't apply to attack rolls and combat maneuver checks made to grapple.
Even if Kitty is using weapon finesse, and thus is hampered by the -4 dex, that's still more than made up for by the +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks when the target fails to escape or reverse.
The -2 penalty would apply to the rake attacks, or any other attacks that were not specifically made to grapple.
If unsuccessful can attack bite/claw/claw and attempt to grapple with bite.. round over..
If Kitty used it's standard action to attempt to maintain the grapple, it can't also perform a full-round action to full attack.
The rake rules are special attack rules and you follow the rake attack rules as written when grappling.
Meaning you get two free claw attacks when you are grappling. You don't need to make a full attack to get these attacks because the specific rule (rake attacks) trumps the general rule (full attacks).
A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe.
@MacGurcules: OK, so if understand you, you are distinguishing between 'free' attack and 'additional' attack as Flurry of Blows uses...
I can understand that, and it would indeed seem to make the claw attacks apply whether you Full Attacked, or Maintained the Grapple... apparently you would even get to make them if you take some other unrelated action, like Casting a Spell and retrieving gear from a Backpack as a Move Action?I guess how I can see how that applies per that reading of the RAW, but I still have a question about making a Full Attack. If you look at the first sentence itself, it's saying that you 'gain an extra natural attack'. So when the condition of the ability applies, you have 2 more natural attacks. So when you start your round and take a Full Attack, you should make an attack for all your natural attacks, that's how it works. The Full Attack is done, but now you would also get to make 2 more 'free' Claw attacks? I don't see why not, if you could do so after spending a Full Round on anything else...
I'm not sure if making this distinction between free attack and additional attacks is fully clear that it is intended, it also seems reasonable that the terms were used synonymously.
...gains extra natural attacks,
...gains two free claw attacks...
It seems strange for the second sentence to exist as it does, when it isn't describing some different, i.e. the way you use the ability mentioned in the first sentence (which you interpret as a direct statement of how it works, as free actions), but is saying the exact same thing, i.e. re-iterating the same thing while specifying claws. In that case the latter part isn't a direct statement of how it works, but simply a re-iteration that you have gained natural attacks... So you aren't given any special way to use the attacks, except the normal way you utilize natural weapons via the normal attack action including full attack.
??????????
Quandary the rake attacks are made using the rear claws of a cat.
Previous editions would list the rake as "rear claws", cats do not rake with front claws.
They are also not called talons, just rear claws.
It works basically this way.
Cat pounces to attack gets it's bite and two claw attacks. If it hits with a claw attack it gets a free grab. If either of the grabs are successful then it gets the two rake attacks.. In order to get the rakes, the cat has to have it's opponent in a grapple.
No, you don't have to be grappling in order to rake during a pounce.
Pounce (Ex) "When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability)."
The ability to make rake attacks during a pounce supersedes the normal rake rules, otherwise it could never use rake during a pounce, since it didn't begin its turn already grappling.
@QueenMoragan: Yes, I'm not unclear on that functionality, that's how I understand it and play it per RAW, but it seems strange to diverge from the Talon/limb association for... no particular good reason, other than sharing Weapon Focus/Spec/ImpNatAttack and bypassing Bludgeoning DR. It's also strange to diverge from the limb/weapon association and not clearly state that, e.g. rear limb Claw. AFAIK, the limb/weapon association isn't really stated clearly and directly any where in the rules, but Paizo has indicated that is the intent (in general), so going against that without even saying so just muddies the waters. That's the only reason why I mentioned it, so they could perhaps just clear it up that's it's an exception, or use Talons if there in fact isn't any serious desire that the attacks be Claws and not Talons.
@LazarX: how Pounce/Grab works doesn't seem in controversy, check the thread title ;-)
@MacGurgle: I think it didn't make it into an Edit of my last post, but the second sentence specifying Claw attacks using 'gain' (like the first sentence) seems to me that it is still in the realm of 'granting a natural attack' = gain. Any other ability I can imagine would not use 'gain an attack' for 'make an attack'. If they use free actions, that is normally specified as 'as a free action, XYZ...'. If the word 'action' is not used, that is signifigant in game terms - see attack vs. attack action.
Quandary to answer your original question.
How to use rake in a grapple -
You MUST start your turn in a grapple,
Then use a Standard Action to maintain the grapple.
If you are successful-
Inflict damage from either bite or claw you used to grab the previous round.
Make 2 free attack rolls for your rear claws, you are now doing rake.
Since you are using a Standard Action to maintain the grapple, you can't make any other attacks except the 2 free attacks that rake provides.
I am discussing the specifics of the rules... I don't see any mention of maintaining a grapple as the trigger to do rake attacks. That type of wording is very common in the rest of the game, e.g. how constrict works, or grab itself (those are two different approaches, one automatically does damage, the other is a distinct attack roll), in this case it would be constrained to when you start the turn grappling. But that type of wording doesn't appear here. It says you gain natural attacks. Why can't you use them in a Full Attack when the conditions are met? There is no other action given for them. If you aren't interested in the RAW details, or seeing if Paizo's intent truly matches them, great. That's why I started the thread though.
Quandary, I think I understand where you are stuck.
You want to know how to use rake in a Grapple, without any Pounce/Grab mixed in.
Rake (Ex) A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature's description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
Format: rake (2 claws +8, 1d4+2); Location: Special Attacks.
The bolded (mine) 4th sentence is your answer.
In order to use Rake in a Grapple, you have to start your turn already in a Grapple.
So, these are your options;
A: Release the Grapple - a free action, but now you cannot rake.
But now you could do a Full Attack - but just claw, claw, bite.
B: If you do not release the Grappple, you MUST continue to make a check each round, as a Standard Action, to maintain the hold.
Once you do that, these are your options;
1: Move. And make your 2 free(action) rear claw rake attacks.
2: Damage. Roll damage for whatever part you Grabbed with & then make your 2 free(action) rear claw rake attacks.
3: Pin. And make your 2 free(action) rear claw rake attacks.
4: Tie Up: And make your 2 free(action) rear claw rake attacks.
From what I have seen (and done myself), the confusion on this matter simply comes from not completely reading through the various rules used here.
Which are in order of use.
Charge, Pounce, Full Attack, Grab, Grapple/Hold, Maintain Grapple, Rake.
Quandary the rake attacks are made using the rear claws of a cat.
Previous editions would list the rake as "rear claws", cats do not rake with front claws.
They are also not called talons, just rear claws.
Where does it say that?
And does it state anywhere that increasing the claw damage (via improved natural attack) doesn't increase the damage for rake?Because rake listing free claw attacks seems to me that rake uses the claw damage.
@MacG: that makes sense for the normal English usage of Talons, just the explanation I had seen from Paizo seemed to boil it down to a strict correlation: arms/forelimbs:Claws, legs/rearlimbs:Talons... per RAW, Rake grants Claws no matter the normal association. I guess that has bearing mostly on other aspects of Claw abilities, e.g. what limb you must grow Claws from with Bloodline abilities, etc.
The Wyvern case is interesting, using Talons as you say, although it doesn't actually have any exception to the Rake rules, so it's still entitled to Claw attacks, even though it says Talons in the stat-block...
...What were your thoughts on my post on Monday and the follow-up after Booksy's posts?
Umbranus
As, I stated earlier PREVIOUS EDITIONS ( D&D 1st, 2nd & 3rd) (this is by memory),
listed the Rake attacks by cats as being done with the REAR Claws, which also usually had smaller dice than the front claws.
RAW INA should apply to all claws, as I believe they are all the same size now, front & rear.
RAI you could argue either way, since PF does not distinguish what claws are raking, which I believe adds some confusion on making Rake attacks.
MacGurcules does make a new point- do the Rake in the beginning of your turn, I had not thought of that.
I'll have to reread through it.
If it is a carry over from older edition that explains why I didn't find anything. The only PF rule stating that rake is made with rear claws is for the eidolon.
On the other hand the tatzelwyrm, who has no rear claws can pounce and rake. So there is one class ability that gives rear claw rake and at least one monster with front claw rake.
What I see as really problematic with those unclear wordings is that you can combine them.
For example the eidolon. With the claws evulation it gets front claws. With the rake evolotion it gets rear claws. With the rend evolotion it can rend if it hits with 2 claw attacks. Two of its 4? RAW yes.
Tatzelwyrms have only 1 melee attack- bite with grab.
Their claws I think the original entry in Kingmaker: Stolen Lands might have said something about the small limbs/claws being weaker than normal and thus not used in general melee.
When a creature in its normal form has only 2 limbs, it really doesn't have front or rear ones, just limbs.
Melee bite +5 (1d8+3 plus grab) Special Attacks poison gasp, pounce, rake (2 claws +5, 1d4+2)
I think it looks like you can use Rake first thing on your turn while in a Grapple, and then either release the Grapple and Full Attack (with possibly starting a new Grab/Grapple), or Maintain the Grapple and do your whatever option.
RAW you cannot Start a Grapple and Rake in the same turn, but I believe that means you cannot Rake in the Grapple you started on that same turn.
This would allow cats, for example, to make all 5 attacks each round, and nearly every round.