Bite (grab ability) and then IMMEDIATELY rake or....? (few more questions related to grapple)


Rules Questions


So let's say a leopard pounces, makes a bite attack and successfully grapples the opponent, does it then ALSO make rake attacks or wait until its next turn?

If I'm correct, AT LEAST on its next turn, it does bite damage (the attack used to make the grapple) as well as rake attacks. I remember reading somewhere that you can ONLY make attacks with light weapons when grappled, but going through the core rulebook I can't find that note again. What attacks ARE available when grappling (spells aside, I read that note about concentration checks and about spell components)?

Also, if you trip your opponent YOU don't fall prone as well, right?


Any natural attack is possible while grappling.


In 3.5 it was light only. I believe in Pathfinder it is one handed and smaller.


On a pounce it rakes. Any other full attack it needs to start with the critter in its maw.

Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

Format: pounce; Location: Special Attacks.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

BigNorseWolf is correct.

Pounce provides another opportunity to use Rake other than in grapple.
Remember to claw, claw, rake, rake and THEN bite if you intend to Grab.
Starting a successful Grapple could end your full attack!

Just reread the Pounce and Rake descriptions in the Bestiary.


Natural attacks are considered attacks made with a light weapon for this purpose.

Ruyan.


cmastah wrote:
Also, if you trip your opponent YOU don't fall prone as well, right?

Right. But if you attempt to trip your opponent and fail by 10 or more, you do fall prone, unless you're using a trip weapon in which case you have the option of dropping the weapon instead of falling prone.


Queen M... I dont think its rake rake.

generally speaking you only get one rake, they dont stack.

so the leopard charges, bite, claw, claw, if the bite hits roll a grapple, if the grapples connect you can do rake damage.

NOTE: some creatures like the Tiger get a grab attempt for each claw and the bite. some people say 1 grapple attempt per hit while others say one grapple for the entire attack as long as one attack hit. But thats a diffent debate, as long as a grapple is rolled and succeeds you get 1 rake for the round.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

This is how cats work.
Attack with pounce = full attack at end of charge with rake.
That's claw, claw, rake, rake and then bite.
If you want to start a grapple now use Grab.

We'll assume you succeeded with your Grapple and did not try to Hold instead.

If whatever you grappled is still grappled on your next turn, then you can use a Standard Action to maintain the grapple.

If successful there are several thing you can do as listed in the Grapple rules.

If you want to damage your opponent, you then just roll your bite damage, and then you can make your attack rolls for your two rake attacks.

Rinse and repeat as necessary.


blue_the_wolf wrote:
generally speaking you only get one rake, they dont stack.

Leopard : "Special Attacks pounce, rake (2 claws +6, 1d3+3)"

Rake (Ex): "A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe."

Pounce (Ex): "When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability)."


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

If you want to do rake attacks there are two options.

A: Pounce allows rakes. So you can rake every time you pounce.

B: If you start your turn already grappled, then you can make your free rake attacks.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Thank you Grick for putting all that up.

Blue the Wolf each attack that has Grab allows a free grapple check.

If Grick could be a lamb and post that too. (I'm at work doing this on my phone.)

I'm pretty sure that if you interrupt your attacks with a Grab-Grapple, that it prevents any unmade attacks since you are now grappled.


I get what your saying...

I always treat rake like rend. in other words you get 1 attack and if it hits you deal 2 claws worth of damage.

but your right. I do it wrong.


Queen Moragan wrote:

Blue the Wolf each attack that has Grab allows a free grapple check.

If Grick could be a lamb and post that too. (I'm at work doing this on my phone.)

Baaaaaa...

Grab (Ex): "If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. (more)"

When the grab-limb hits, you can choose to make a grapple check as a free action. If you succeed, you both gain the grappled condition.

You also have the option of using the Hold, with a big penalty, in which case you don't get the grappled condition but your target does. (You're still grappling, you just don't have that specific condition)

Many people just make all the attacks then do a grab at the end, but technically if the first attack hits and grabs, the other attacks should be at a penalty due to the grappled condition.

Queen Moragan wrote:
I'm pretty sure that if you interrupt your attacks with a Grab-Grapple, that it prevents any unmade attacks since you are now grappled.

The Grappled condition does not prevent making attacks.


I just wanted to point out that a -2 penalty to attack and ac balance out to no penalty unless you use weapon finesse. In that case you take a -4 to attack.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Thank you Grick.

Ignore my flash-back from lack of coffee.

Grab does not prevent any attacks, so you can do them in any order or all at once.

My group just figured it out a few months ago, our "cat druid" was shredding everything in sight.

For what it's worth, IMO tigers are the best cat.


Queen Moragan wrote:

BigNorseWolf is correct.

Pounce provides another opportunity to use Rake other than in grapple.
Remember to claw, claw, rake, rake and THEN bite if you intend to Grab.
Starting a successful Grapple could end your full attack!

Just reread the Pounce and Rake descriptions in the Bestiary.

No it wouldn't.


Thanks for the help guys....holy wow that's a powerful CR1 creature. I was almost going to overlook animals in my campaign before I realized they'd be a great source of starting threats.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Johnlocke90 are you disagreeing with he part I recanted, or that pounce allows rake?

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