Class Level
The character's druid level. The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics.
There is no direct note of a maximum level in this form, but there is a president that class level related abilities are capped by the character's actual level (several feats use wording like this).
Yes i have always said that RAW in the case that would work.
BUT, I would like to point out that using eldritch heritage to get an animal companion means you are probably looking at the sylvan wildblooded archetype of the fey bloodline. Eldritch heritage allows you to choose from normal bloodlines, not wildblooded bloodlines. wildblooded bloodlines require you to be a sorcerer so you can choose an archetype, eldritch heritage mentions nothing about archetypes, just bloodlines, which is why the wildblooded options are in a differect section with archetypes, instead of being listed with the other bloodlines.
i have always interpreted it as the eldritch heritage feat specifically uses CHARACTER level, and other classes use CLASS level, that it is (imo unintended) RAW that for every level you take that gets an AC, you get 2 levels worth of abilities to determine the abilities of your AC. even worse when you add aasimar nature oracle with animal companion who takes the aasimar optional favored class ability to increase a revelations level by +1/2 level every level. level 9 would give a level 20 druids AC (9 oracle + 4.5 rounded down to 4 from aasimar favored class + 7 from eldritch heritage). i don't see any sane GM allowing that though :)
and i was just reiterating the wildblooded availability to eldritch heritage. i really think that since those bloodlines were put in a separate section of the book apart from the normal bloodline, makes them unavailable for the feat. i don't know of any developer comments one way or the other though.
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You have to be very careful with the various feats and abilities. For example Horse Master is a favorite one for people who think you can push your AC's level past your character level by multi-classing druid and cavalier, but the wording of the feat actually just says you use your character level when determining the powers and abilities of your mount, which would override your class levels, not supplement them, leaving you with the same effective druid level. I have yet to see a rules-legal way of pushing your AC's level past your total character level.
horse master has different wording than eldritch heritage. IF sylvan bloodline is allowed then it would raise your AC's level above your own.
horse master replaces cavalier level with character level. eldritch heritage does not replace anything, it just gives an additional ability based on character level, and that ability just happens to say that it stacks with other class levels to determine the ability, without ever mentioning a cap to it.
heck an aasimar nature oracle can get an AC of higher than character level with just the favored class bonus
Class Level
The character's druid level. The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics.
emphasis mine
Since Eldritch Heritage is a feat (not a class), its supplying you with a second animal companion, as it cannot stack. So without taking further feats in the Eldritch line, or debatably Boon Companion, the second animal will max out at effective druid level 15.
Select one sorcerer bloodline. You must have Skill focus in the class skill that bloodline grants to a sorcerer at 1st level (for example, Heal for the celestial bloodline). This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have. You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.
eldritch heritage gives you class levels in sorcerer for determining AC, and therefore stack
I have yet to see a rules-legal way of pushing your AC's level past your total character level.
I see no reason why an aasimar nature oracle with favored class bonus oracle for the revelation giving you the mount would not be RAW.
But I don't understand your interpretation of the horsemaster, too.Or better I don't agree with it.
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**But I don't understand your interpretation of the horsemaster, too.
Or better I don't agree with it.
Horse master gives you one flat result: "Use your character level to determine your effective druid level for determining the powers and abilities of your mount."
Therefore you no longer use your class level when determining your effective druid level, you are only using your character level. This is a flat number. What level am I? Cavalier 5 / Druid 12? That means I have a total character level of 17, which is the number I use to determine my mounts abilities since I have the Horse Master feat. I wouldn't add any class levels in, because I no longer use class levels to determine my mounts abilities.
There's also the interesting statement from James Jacobs that Animal Companion levels gained from different sources don't stack and only provide additional animals, but that seems to conflict a bit with some of the information provided in the druid entry.
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I have yet to see a rules-legal way of pushing your AC's level past your total character level.
I see no reason why an aasimar nature oracle with favored class bonus oracle for the revelation giving you the mount would not be RAW.
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There's an argument to be made for this, but I think the wording is still loose enough to give the GM some room for adjudication. The aasimar's favored class option says "Add +1/2 to the oracle's level for the purpose of determining the effects of one revelation". Most Revelations are phrased similar to "As a melee touch attack, you can deal 1d6 points of damage per level". The Nature's Bond revelation says "This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using your oracle level as your effective druid level". That's an ability of the animal companion, not an effect of the revelation. I would say it doesn't apply. Again, I can see the argument for the other side of this though. Regardless, I'm certain that even under the more favorable interpretation, it's an unintended consequence of two abilities written by two different authors in two different books working together in an unintended way. I'm positive that the RAI is not to allow a character's animal companion to out-level them.
**But I don't understand your interpretation of the horsemaster, too.
Or better I don't agree with it.Horse master gives you one flat result: "Use your character level to determine your effective druid level for determining the powers and abilities of your mount."
Therefore you no longer use your class level when determining your effective druid level, you are only using your character level. This is a flat number. What level am I? Cavalier 5 / Druid 12? That means I have a total character level of 17, which is the number I use to determine my mounts abilities since I have the Horse Master feat. I wouldn't add any class levels in, because I no longer use class levels to determine my mounts abilities.
I on the other hand read that in a way that you get your character level as effective druid level for one instance of the mount ability (the one from cavalier, because you need to be a cavalier to get horse master) and follow the normal rules for stacking mounts from other classes.
But besides being unclear as to how we should read it the horsemaster feat has one real problem that should be adresses sometimes: you can take this feat without having the mount ability. What happens is you do?
The banner bearer gets the expert trainer ability and thus qualifies for horse master, but has no mount.
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But besides being unclear as to how we should read it the horsemaster feat has one real problem that should be adresses sometimes: you can take this feat without having the mount ability. What happens is you do?
The banner bearer gets the expert trainer ability and thus qualifies for horse master, but has no mount.
Exactly nothing happens. The feat let's you cont your levels to enhance something you don't have, so it's a wasted feat. Still Spell can be taken by fighters because it doesn't have any pre-reqs, they're not suddenly able to cast spells.
I on the other hand read that in a way that you get your character level as effective druid level for one instance of the mount ability (the one from cavalier, because you need to be a cavalier to get horse master) and follow the normal rules for stacking mounts from other classes.
But nothing in the feat actually says that. You're infering a lot from the fact that it has a cavalier ability as a requirement, but the mechanical portion of the feat does exactly one thing. You use your character level in place of class level to determine your mounts abilities. It doesn't say "Use your character level [b]in place of your cavalier level[/i]". There's a lot of feats and abilities that effect all instances of a given ability. The Knife Master's Sneak Stab changes the dice used when he sneak attacks. If he takes levels of Vivisectionist, Sneak Stab isn't going to only apply to the Sneak dice gained from his Rogue levels, it permanently changes the Sneak Attack ability for him regardless of source. Horse Master is the same way, only it applies to mount abilities instead of Sneak Attacks.
There is RAW that an Animal Companion cannot exceed level 20. The chart only goes to 20.
I, and as far as I remember nobody else, said that they would go beyond level 20.
All I say is that I think you can reach a level 20 companion without being level 20 yourself.If you manage that you can still decide to dip into a class that clearly allows you to have more than one AC and level a second one from then on.
Or you just suck it up and karry on with your level 20 AC.
And a lot of players will never have a level 20 character, because the adventure paths don't go to that level.
There's an argument to be made for this, but I think the wording is still loose enough to give the GM some room for adjudication. The aasimar's favored class option says "Add +1/2 to the oracle's level for the purpose of determining the effects of one revelation". Most Revelations are phrased similar to "As a melee touch attack, you can deal 1d6 points of damage per level". The Nature's Bond revelation says "This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using your oracle level as your effective druid level". That's an ability of the animal companion, not an effect of the revelation. I would say it doesn't apply. Again, I can see the argument for the other side of this though. Regardless, I'm certain that even under the more favorable interpretation, it's an unintended consequence of two abilities written by two different authors in two different books working together in an unintended way. I'm positive that the RAI is not to allow a character's animal companion to out-level them.I have yet to see a rules-legal way of pushing your AC's level past your total character level.
I see no reason why an aasimar nature oracle with favored class bonus oracle for the revelation giving you the mount would not be RAW.
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how do you explain a sylvan sorcerer wearing a robe of arcane heritage then? the robe QUITE SPECIFICALLY allows your bloodline powers to go above your level, and having an animal companion at your level -3 is your bloodline power. that would give you, even without boon companion, an animal companion at your character level+1
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how do you explain a sylvan sorcerer wearing a robe of arcane heritage then? the robe QUITE SPECIFICALLY allows your bloodline powers to go above your level, and having an animal companion at your level -3 is your bloodline power. that would give you, even without boon companion, an animal companion at your character level+1
I would say the exact same thing I said in the previous post, since Robes of Arcane Heritage says "The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects", which is virtually identical to "Add +1/2 to the oracle's level for the purpose of determining the effects of one revelation".
The "effect" of the bloodline ability is that you get an Animal Companion. This "effect" does not scale and is not level-dependent, and so isn't impacted by the Robes of Arcane Heritage. The Animal Companion's level-based stats and abilities are not an effect of the Bloodline ability, but a feature of the Animal Companion.
the "effect" does not scale and is not level dependent, then how do you determine the abilities of the animal companion? how can they be features of the animal companion when the animal companion's abilities are based on your effective level? if the abilities are determined by your level and you have an item or ability that changes that, how can it be determined?
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the "effect" does not scale and is not level dependent, then how do you determine the abilities of the animal companion? how can they be features of the animal companion when the animal companion's abilities are based on your effective level? if the abilities are determined by your level and you have an item or ability that changes that, how can it be determined?
The Animal Companion grows more powerful as you do, at a rate of level -3. That is a feature of the Animal Companion you've gained from the ability, not an effect of the ability itself. If you think I'm wrong, FAQ it, and try to get DEV clarification. I did.
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The best way to deal with this is just have the specific corner case you mention be mutually exclusive. If you have an animal companion that progresses outside of class levels, then the two coexist rather than stack. They are not meant to function together the way that you describe, so don't try to fit a square peg in a round hole.
are you claiming that nothing can change the level of the ability?
would boon companion change the level? i think the obvious answer is yes, since even developers have pointed out that a ranger can take boon companion to make up for the -3 level penalty that rangers get for their default animal companion. sylvan sorcerer is no different. you both gain an animal companion at your class appropriate level -3.
the aasimar favored class bonus and robe of arcane heritage both increase your level for abilities, and are worded that way because they do not cover just animal companions, but have to take into account a wide variety of abilities that are increased, which INCLUDES getting animal companions. and unlike boon companion feat, they do not give a cap of your level.
why would they exclude the animal companion ability from this? more importantly why would they exclude animal companion from this and NOT say something about it in the ability?
how does it differ from say, an elf/aasimar life oracle getting channel positive energy to heal, and using the favored class bonus to get more d6 of healing than what they should get at their level? at 6th level that oracle could channel 5d6 healing.
and if you claim that the life oracle should NOT get that bonus in healing, what do you think the point of that favored class bonus is if it does nothing? why was it created in the first place? in your definition of it, what abilities WOULD it work on, and why would it work on those instead of others?
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are you claiming that nothing can change the level of the ability?
would boon companion change the level? i think the obvious answer is yes, since even developers have pointed out that a ranger can take boon companion to make up for the -3 level penalty that rangers get for their default animal companion. sylvan sorcerer is no different. you both gain an animal companion at your class appropriate level -3.
the aasimar favored class bonus and robe of arcane heritage both increase your level for abilities, and are worded that way because they do not cover just animal companions, but have to take into account a wide variety of abilities that are increased, which INCLUDES getting animal companions. and unlike boon companion feat, they do not give a cap of your level.
why would they exclude the animal companion ability from this? more importantly why would they exclude animal companion from this and NOT say something about it in the ability?
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No, Boon companion would effect your animal companion as normal, because the feat specifically says The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were four levels higher, to a maximum bonus equal to your character level. It directly impacts your animal companion. The ability to have an animal companion is a static ability. That ability does not scale with level. It just gives you an animal companion. Your Animal Companion grows in strength when you do. This isn't something that happens because of the ability, it's a feature of the animal companion.
No, Boon companion would effect your animal companion as normal, because the feat specifically says The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were four levels higher, to a maximum bonus equal to your character level. It directly impacts your animal companion. The ability to have an animal companion is a static ability. That ability does not scale with level. It just gives you an animal companion. Your Animal Companion grows in strength when you do. This isn't something that happens because of the ability, it's a feature of the animal companion.are you claiming that nothing can change the level of the ability?
would boon companion change the level? i think the obvious answer is yes, since even developers have pointed out that a ranger can take boon companion to make up for the -3 level penalty that rangers get for their default animal companion. sylvan sorcerer is no different. you both gain an animal companion at your class appropriate level -3.
the aasimar favored class bonus and robe of arcane heritage both increase your level for abilities, and are worded that way because they do not cover just animal companions, but have to take into account a wide variety of abilities that are increased, which INCLUDES getting animal companions. and unlike boon companion feat, they do not give a cap of your level.
why would they exclude the animal companion ability from this? more importantly why would they exclude animal companion from this and NOT say something about it in the ability?
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Eh, that's a bit of a stretch isn't it? An animal companion has a generally static progression based on class level, it is in no way a static class feature. Evasion is a static class feature.
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Eh, that's a bit of a stretch isn't it? An animal companion has a generally static progression based on class level, it is in no way a static class feature. Evasion is a static class feature.
What I'm saying is that the ability Animal Companion (Ex): You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st). This bloodline power counts as your bloodline arcana and also replaces laughing touch.
It is not an ability that scales as you level, like say:
Cloak of Shadows (Sp): At 1st level, as a standard action, you can grant one target a cloak of shadows. This cloak gives the target a bonus on Stealth checks made in areas of dim or no light equal to 1/2 your sorcerer level for 1 round per 2 sorcerer levels you possess (minimum +1 bonus for 1 round). You may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. This bloodline power replaces shadowstrike.
The ability only grants you an animal companion. The animal companions progression is determined by the animal companion, not by an effect of the ability. The combinations he is trying to use, like the Robe of Arcane Heritage which says "The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects". The Animal Companion's level is not an effect of the ability, the only effect of the ability is that you gain an animal companion, so the ability would not be subject to the Robes power.
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Let me put it another way. The ability Elementalist Summoning (Su): At 9th level, whenever you summon a creature, it gains energy resistance 10 against the energy type that matches your elemental bloodline (if it already has such resistance, its resistance increases by +5), and its natural attacks deal an additional 1d6 points of damage of the same energy type. This bloodline power replaces elemental blast.
This gives you one thing, set bonuses to your summoned creatures. It can't be advanced by increasing your effective level for effects of the ability, because the ability only does one thing. You may be able to summon more powerful creatures to apply this ability to as a result of leveling up, but that is not an effect of the ability. Animal Companion is the same way.
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I would think it would still work in the case of the animal companion.
"The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects".
Animal Companion (Ex): You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st). This bloodline power counts as your bloodline arcana and also replaces laughing touch.
Therefore the effective druid level would be equal to sorceror level +4 (from the robes as this is an effect of the bloodline)-3. So a net gain of +1 effective druid level.
Animal Companion (Ex): You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st). This bloodline power counts as your bloodline arcana and also replaces laughing touch.
"You gain an animal companion" This is an effect of the ability.
"Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)." This is a clarification of the ability, not an effect.
If he wanted to take Boon Companion he could increase his companions ability up to his own character level just like a ranger, but the other favored class bonuses and magic items would not impact the ability.
yeah... I get what you were arguing, I'm just not buying it. The animal companion does not level on its own, the characters class level determines the animal companions stats.
I'm not suggesting that some of the weirdness above makes any more sense, but with regards to things like the robes, its pretty clear cut. Your class level determines AC stats, the robes grant four levels related to the bloodline power that grants the AC, your at +1... not really an argument to be made here.
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the robes grant four levels related to the bloodline power that grants the AC, your at +1... not really an argument to be made here.
They grant +4 levels to "determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects". Like I've been saying, having the animal companion is the only effect, unlike other powers like "Cloak of Shadows (Sp): At 1st level, as a standard action, you can grant one target a cloak of shadows. This cloak gives the target a bonus on Stealth checks made in areas of dim or no light equal to 1/2 your sorcerer level for 1 round per 2 sorcerer levels you possess (minimum +1 bonus for 1 round). You may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. This bloodline power replaces shadowstrike." That specifically have scaling effects based on your level. No matter how many levels you have the "effect" of gaining an animal companion never changes. It is a property of Animal Companions that they level with their characters, not "an effect of the bloodline power". Click the FAQ button if you disagree and get an official clarification.
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It just gives you an animal companion. Your Animal Companion grows in strength when you do. This isn't something that happens because of the ability, it's a feature of the animal companion.Please explain how this is possible. If the animal companion's level is not tied to the ability that grants an animal companion, then what rules stop the animal companion from growing when you multiclass to a class that doesn't have the animal companion ability? Are you saying that the strength of the animal companion is tied to the class itself? What constitutes this connection? We know that if you start leveling in fighter your animal companion would not level up. What is the difference between a druid and a fighter that lets the druid level up the animal companion? It's the fact that they have the ability to have an animal companion, i.e. the animal companion class feature. I don't really understand your argument at all, and no offense but to me it just seems like you are arguing against this because you don't want it to work.
An animal companion's abilities are determined by the druid's level and its animal racial traits.
This is the very first ability of the animal companion. He powers up based on his druid's level and his own racial traits. Since none of the items listed effect the characters actual level, only his level for determining the effects of his Bloodline arcana, they do not impact this ability.
sooo the animal companion that is a bloodline power isn't a bloodline power because its an animal companion?
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sooo the animal companion that is a bloodline power isn't a bloodline power because its an animal companion?
The bloodline power has one effect: It grants you an Animal Companion. That Animal Companions abilities determine what happens from there. The Animal Companion is not a Bloodline Power. He is a (potentially) furry creature granted to you by the bloodline power.
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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. I view the fact that you can use your sorceror level to determine the level of the animal companion as an effect of the bloodline power because normally levels in druid are required.
S'alright, I just appreciate that this conversation has stayed civil despite our disagreeing :)
At any rate, I would say that yay or nay on the above choice will not be devastating any games in the near future.
My take:
1) Levels from different classes stack if they say they do (in the case of two classes with the AC feature they do).
2) IF you take an ability such as Eldritch Heritage that gives you an animal companion, but you already have an animal companion then it does nothing unless it has a higher level than you original ability. This is no different than the 'I have Arcane Bond, can I take another Arcane bond with Eldritch Heritage <arcane>?' debate.
3) I can see both sides to the debate regarding the Robe of Arcane Heritage. In my mind an argument for RAW could be made in either direction. Depending on how it is read Animal Companions might or might not be 1 step removed from being the ability boosted.
I personally do not see allowing it as a problem since there are magic items that do this for other abilities such as smite. With that said, I would be on the look out for major cheese and might throw a book at a player that tried to stack multiple level raising abilites.
So: In the case of the OP's scenario the Animal Companion would be either level 20 (druid level) or level 15 (Eldritch Heritage <sylvan>). Take the better of the two. Add Robe of Arcane Heritage and then it is either a level 20 AC or a level 19 AC, still taking the better of the two.
- Gauss
My take:
1) Levels from different classes stack if they say they do (in the case of two classes with the AC feature they do).
2) IF you take an ability such as Eldritch Heritage that gives you an animal companion, but you already have an animal companion then it does nothing unless it has a higher level than you original ability. This is no different than the 'I have Arcane Bond, can I take another Arcane bond with Eldritch Heritage <arcane>?' debate.
3) I can see both sides to the debate regarding the Robe of Arcane Heritage. In my mind an argument for RAW could be made in either direction. Depending on how it is read Animal Companions might or might not be 1 step removed from being the ability boosted.
I personally do not see allowing it as a problem since there are magic items that do this for other abilities such as smite. With that said, I would be on the look out for major cheese and might throw a book at a player that tried to stack multiple level raising abilites.
So: In the case of the OP's scenario the Animal Companion would be either level 20 (druid level) or level 15 (Eldritch Heritage <sylvan>). Take the better of the two. Add Robe of Arcane Heritage and then it is either a level 20 AC or a level 19 AC, still taking the better of the two.
- Gauss
This feels a whole lot like erring on the side of no to me. If its outside the norm should it always be no? I feel that if a character has an animal companion and chooses to take another through three feats, then I say why not? The person has made a very large investment for that acquisition, it seems only natural that they would benefit.
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I feel silly for coming in to this conversation so late and an "agree to disagree" has been reached, and I promise I'm not trying to fan any flames.
I run PFS games and one of these issues (specifically, the Aasimar Oracle of Nature) has come up. Were this a house game I would say no, the oracle's animal companion cannot outlevel them simply because it would become very unbalanced. But because this is PFS I need a clear (hopefully endorsed by the Paizo staff?) ruling on whether the aasimar oracle of nature can use their favored class bonus to level their companion faster.
Technically you wouldn't be able to take the Sylvan bloodline with Eldritch Heritage since the first ability says it replaces the Fey Bloodline Arcana and Bloodline power. Eldritch Heritage only grants you the first Bloodline power not the Bloodline Arcana i believe. Not sure if anyone mentioned this previously or not but I thought I should put it on the table.
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The Sylvan thing has more holes in it than a cheese grater, and I consider Thadius' point to pretty much be a nail in the coffin as far as that's concerned. The most I can provide on the Asimar Nature Oracle would be my earlier statement:
There's an argument to be made for this, but I think the wording is still loose enough to give the GM some room for adjudication. The aasimar's favored class option says "Add +1/2 to the oracle's level for the purpose of determining the effects of one revelation". Most Revelations are phrased similar to "As a melee touch attack, you can deal 1d6 points of damage per level". The Nature's Bond revelation says "This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using your oracle level as your effective druid level". That's an ability of the animal companion, not an effect of the revelation. The revelation has one single non-scaling effect; namely, it grants you an animal companion. I would say it doesn't apply. Again, I can see the argument for the other side of this though. Regardless, I'm certain that even under the more favorable interpretation, it's an unintended consequence of two abilities written by two different authors in two different books working together in an unintended way. I'm positive that the RAI is not to allow a character's animal companion to out-level them.
It'd be nice to have something from someone at Paizo concisely stating that Animal COmpanions can't out-level their masters though.