I'm playing a catfolk (level 3 ranger), and I have claw/claw/bite primaries.
I plan on dipping scout for sneak attack and scout's charge, semi-pounce (claw pounce racial trait or similiar), monk of many styles for boar shred (and likely the precision damage style) and rending claws from ranger...
Which of those will stack together on a charge assuming I can drop into monk styles before the charge (thanks to stealth)?
(Yes, I am playing this less catfolk and more stalking tiger.. Get close, jump out and rip the targets throat out, and disappear into the trees.)
You get sneak attack + pounce, and Boar Shred only comes into play after the second hit in a round, it has nothing to do with a charge.
Well actually now I say that, you shouldn't be able to use Boar Shred on a charge at all, should you? Can you get two claws on a charge?
May I suggest Tiger Style instead of Boar maybe? Pretty sure Tiger Claws works with a charge (double palm strike, essentially, one attack roll for double your US damage + mods).
Claw pounce allows two claw attacks on a charge, so it SHOULD be two claw SNEAK ATTACKS attacks (1d8 + 6) +Xd6 sneak, if both hit then boar shred bleed damage, and rending claws, along with anything else I can tack on... (poison, perhaps.)
Can more than one type of precision damage be applied to the same attack?
I don't recall ever seeing it written that multiple type of precision damage can't be added on the same attack, so I'd think that they can. In regards to Boar Style keep this in mind; in order to use style feats with natural weapons you have to take a feat, so keep that in mind (as your build seems very feat intensive). Researching Boar Style on this board, it also seems like there's some confusion that's never been clarified about the 2d6 "bleed" that you do; no one really seems to be sure if that is meant to be ongoing damage (incredibly powerful at low levels) or just extra damage that isn't subject to DR.
Also, I wouldn't suggest poison; it's too costly for a benefit that mostly takes beyond the time-frame of the combat to really do its damage.
Thanks for the tip. I'll probably have to splash unarmed fighter for the extra feats.
It's actually not too intensive since some are bonus feats.. This is just an attempt to make a combat-worthy natural attack build that never touches a weapon. (But I'll probably have to focus on grapples at high levels, anyway...)
My next feat will likely be "additional traits" so I can qualify for claw pounce later.
Claw pounce allows two claw attacks on a charge, so it SHOULD be two claw SNEAK ATTACKS attacks (1d8 + 6) +Xd6 sneak, if both hit then boar shred bleed damage, and rending claws, along with anything else I can tack on... (poison, perhaps.)
Can more than one type of precision damage be applied to the same attack?
Unless you can find a rule some place that states a pounce changes the way sneak attack resolved, you'd only get sneak attack on the first attack from stealth.
With Pounce, you get a full attack on a charge. With scout, anytime you charge they are flat footed or denied dex... can't remember which wording is used.
Hence, charging pounce gets full sneak, on full attacks, because the mechanic treats them as flat footed.
Can't cite the rules at the moment, don't have them handy, but unless i'm really misremembering it, he's stacking all the right things to get to count a double claw on a charge as denied dex for the round to give him sneak on both attacks, then stacking rend and bleed on the whole mix.
A Vivisectionist Alchemist with 4 level dip into scout is insane especially if they go the sap route. I could probably just say a vivisectionist beastmorph is insane.
That's why he has Scout's Charge, to apply sneak attack when charging.
However, Claw Pounce (which is a feat not a trait) only applies to claw attacks, so your bite attack is a no go on the charge. (Where are you getting the bite attack from anyways?)
Also, the extra trait feat is referring to the traits in the APG, of which race is a category. Racial traits are essential race features, like base size and speed. The only way to get your Cat's Claws racial trait is to swap it for Natural Hunter, or take the Catfolk Exemplar feat.
And, as said, you'll need the Feral Combat Training feat to apply Boar Style to actual claws. And, if you're taking FCT, you shouldn't give up your flurry ability on MoMS, should probably go with another type of monk for your dip instead.
Just go nat weapon ranger and wait until after level 3 to take unarmed fighter on an odd level. Then you can get boar style from a regular feat, and grab the 3rd in chain with the first level unarmed fighter bonus that ignores pre-reqs too.
Personally, I'd go:
Shapeshifter Ranger 6/Unarmed fighter 1/Rogue Scout 4 to get to all the things you want to stack in the OP.
You need to trade for the claws racial(or burn another feat you don't have many of), and need to not trade sprinter to get Nimble Striker and Claw Pounce. (Note, claws only do 1d4 from the start, you don't have current build/stats posted so not sure where the damage you listed comes from.)
Pick up Rending Claws with the 2nd ranger bonus, I chose shapeshifter to give up favored terrain and get (ranger level +wis mod) rounds/ +4 Str, the speed penalty is negated by the sprinter to give you the full 30ft. then. I also like the infiltrator Archetype for the ability to get energy resists, or save feats, a new movement type, vision/sense type, and such.
Grab Boar Style from a normal progression and Imp Unarmed Strike and Boar Shred from the unarmed fighter level.
It's a minimum of BAB +10 for the feats to get all this working, 2 boar style, I.U.S., Wpn focus (nat), Feral combat training, Claw Pounce (+10BAB), Nimble Striker(catfolk, prereq for Claw Pounce), Rending Claws.
The rogue talent you need for this is Vicious Claws (d8 to claw sneaks instead of d6). Fast Getaway is also good, to let you charge pounce surprise round, if you are flanking or go first in the first combat round, get your sneaks then get a withdraw up to speed as a move, rinse, repeat.
(Note: if you take both rogue and MoMS levels you cannot get Claw Pounce at 11, but have to wait til 13, as you have 2 of your under 10 levels that grant no BAB and won't qualify until 13 for a BAB +10 Feat)
If you started the char already, you got to come in where you can, but from 1st up i'd build like so:
Ranger 1 and 2, take Wpn Foc Nat at 1, Rending claws ranger bonus at 2,
Rogue 3 and 4, take Vicious Claws as the rogue at 4, Boar Style at 3, Unarmed Fighter at 5, take Boar Shred as the fighter bonus, get IUS, and take FCT for your 5th level feat.
Back to rogue for 6/7, pick up another sneak die and the scout ability, a rogue talent and Nimble Striker for 7th.
Back to Ranger 8-11, a feat at 9th, and at 11th (6 ranger) take either eldritch claws or imp nat attack, whichever you like depending on the AoMF you have gotten by now as your bonus, then Claw Pounce as your 11th char feat.
*(Alt, you can take wpn finesse at 1st if you're gonna have a great GM who lets the agile weapon be put in a AoMF, and build a dex based char, then you trade for the Wpn Focus rogue talent at 4 to qualify for Feral Combat Training at 5.) You can ditch vicious claws completely, and take Underhanded if you have a decent Cha bonus, and get max sneak damage in the first round Cha times/day
From here, fighter if you want feats/grappling, rogue to get more sneak, ranger to get more spells, Regular Monk or another archetype to get flurry and more bonuses.
Scout's Charge (Ex): At 4th level, whenever a scout makes a charge, her attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
Okay, I built the character already but lets see if I can remember..
At level 1, Id planned on going ranger/druid but changed my mind when I hit 2nd level.
Its a custom catfolk archtype, that starts with "Feral Weaponry" for bite/claw/claw (lost nimble stiker and sprinter). I also stupidly took the climb speed racial ability...
I've talked my dm into letting me burn a feat to get them back. I also burned up TWO feats on my claws (improved nat attack and catfolk exemplar). I wish I hadn'.t, but asking for a rewrite of my character sheet isn't my style. What should my level 3 feat be now?
I also went shifter's blessing for the style.
In such a feat-starved build, I was thinking splashing monk would give me better bonus feats and help my poor ac and saves.. I'd rather not ever wear heavy armor, I have a nice mithril chain shirt atm.
So... you are what level/classes, with what stats, what racials currently, and what feats already?
*BTW: Catfolk Exemplar racial Feat can be taken mult times, so taking it for the claws as one time, then another one of the things you can get is sprinter racial, so that's already a legal way to qualify for nimble striker later.
** What you'll want in the end is Elven Chain, which is light armor +6ac +5dex that doesn't affect your movement (unless you're low str finesse type with higher than 20 dex).
I lost all the stock catfolk traits for custom ones (d'oh) but my dm will probably let me burn a feat (modified 'additional traits' to get one or two back).
Str: 18
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Wis:16
Int: 14
Cha: 12
(We rolled them)
Started with bite/claw/claw.
feats:
1 ranger Improved natural weapon, claw
2 ranger Catfolk Exemplar
3 ranger (just leveled tonight, can pick whatever)
Ill get my character sheet tomorrow to check if I missed something.
@Cult, I have yet to see a DM that argued that feats listed in a completely separate "style" section of the feats table are not style feats, but that's up to his GM. If that is his case, I had a 9th level feat open anyways in my build list. But I'm going to assume that he reads it the same as even PFS does, which means any feats in the style section unless he gets back to me otherwise.
@Red, KK... first, like I said in the last short post,(looking at the times you were probably typing while i posted) Catfolk Exemplar feat can be taken multiple times for the different abilities it gives, one is the sprinter racial, so it shouldn't be a problem to take that since you traded it out of the racials to start.
However, you can't take catfolk exemplar as a ranger feat, so i'm guessing you have that and imp nat attack(claw) swapped. You really wanted to take rend there, instead of waiting til 7th level to free up better feats later, but we can still work with this, altho asking your DM to let you change that might be a good idea.
In fact, since you were building the whole concept around a pouncing cat, I'd talk to him about redoing both of the feats since you -can't- get to what you wanted the way you have it built now. You'll be doing smaller damage, dropping the claw specs, and grabbing a couple of utility abilities instead, so he might go for it if you point out that alternative. The build you chose, while being good damage after level 12, will still never be on par with a straight fighter/barb, so it's not like you're trying to max out, just keep the concept that he already let you build the custom racial for in the first place.
The only changes you need to make are those crucial first 2 feats, and one of them you're still taking the same feat and just choosing the other racial instead, and the other is taking a different bonus feat from the list of choices since you hadn't really read the reqs for the feats you'd need later it sounds like.
Otherwise you should change to fighter instead of ranger, (not the first 2 levels, no complete rebuild, just from now on) which is more of a major concept change) just to get the feats to be viable for the concept.
I can get you there like that, but the ranger class seems more in line with the stalking ambush type character. As this will be a sub-optimized build in the long run, see what he says.
Either way:
If he says no,:
We'll keep the first 2 levels of ranger, take rogue at level 3, pick up the catfolk exemplar feat a second time(this time for the sprinter racial so you can get nimble striker later), rogue at 4, use a rogue talent weapon training for weapon focus (claws), then switch to unarmed fighter at 5th level, go back to rogue for 6/7 to get to the scout charge, and back to fighter til 11, picking up Rend at either 7 or 9th level and nimble striker on the other one. This will change your rogue talent at 4th level rogue to be vicious claws, and put you back on the set path. This actually makes you do more damage, by getting weapon training and weapon specialization, not to mention gloves of dueling available(make sure your set is fingerless LOL), but you don't get to keep the cool infiltrator/shapeshifter archetype for ranger until after level 11 when you can go back.
If he says yes,:
You still take the catfolk exemplar feat at 1 (so no change there), and change imp nat weapon for rend at 2, then follow the build I lined out the first time, but you have to take the rogue talent for weapon focus (claw) at level 4(rogue 2) and vicious claws at 4th rogue level, then you're back on track.
Turns out, you're not really that far off after all, so he might go for the switch of 2 abilities either way.
BTW: your damage should be 1d8+4 for each claw as is, and if he lets you change the feats around, it goes to 1d4+4. This looks like less damage, and it is, now, about 2pts/attack less... but the build you have is not really set for base damage it's all about the addons... favored enemy, sneak attack, and the like. Ranger will get you spells to change the damage dice up later, do a lil' less now and when you get to the big guns it'll be more of a surprise.
Thanks.. I like the idea of sneak damage a lot (and its synergy with scouts charge/claw pounce), do you think this contradicts my character's behavior/personality?
My character:
Spoiler:
My catfolk ranger, Kiosk, is somewhat erratic and impulsive, but has a fairly strict "code of ethics" (though he doesn't call it that).
Code:
1. Manufactured weapons are a sign of weakness. Animals and natural weapons have the mark of perfection.
2. Laws exist as an excuse for humanoids to get what they want. (ie, I want to build a town here, destroy the trees. I want a farm here, the goblins won't bother me. The goblins ate my cow? Murder all their men women and children. Oh, you worship a different god than me? DIE!!!
3. Arcane magic is a taint on the world. (Yet he used potions because he calls them something else and doesn't understand)
4. Survival of the fittest: Kiosk will always defend himself, never resorting to diplomacy. (Intimidate is ok) against a natural being, kiosk will fight to the death, but vs zombies, werewolves, abberations, etc he has no qualms with running, but its a fear of the unknown, not a fear of the creature.
He also acts erratically both in and out of combat, chases anything bird-like, rodent-like or small and curious (like a small dust elemental or dancing lights if I fail spellcraft) compulsively to the point of rolling a will save for myself. If the rodent/dustthingy runs under a door, sometimes my dm makes me roll a save to avoid hitting the door. Even though he has knowledge arcane, if he fails he will usually just play with the thing/ring the bell/push the button/ etc and see what happens.
Although he hunts with stealth, his combat technique is usually just charge- claw, then full attack next round.
In his backstory, he was kidnapped at a very young age by goblins and enslaved as a 'curiosity', and later sold to drow to fight in their arena. (Arena fighting against animals and aberrations are my flavor for how I learned things like styles and sneak attacking). Kiosk is not his true name, he was kidnapped at such a young age he never knew it. When he escaped the drow, he tracked down his birthplace, but only found the empty burned-out debris of the village. The village's name was Kios, and he added the K at the end due to (useless rp catfolk rp flavor, blah blah)
