All,
I am curious to know what features a Dwarven city would have, in particular one that is deep underground, is cut off from the surface, subjected to possibly hostile cities like Drow, as well as a cold war (only recently ended) with another Dwarven city.
What kinds of spellcasting types would be important in such a society? Where would food come from? What kind of defenses would you expect to find? What magical defenses and Pathfinder spells would still be in place as remnants of their cold war with another nearby dwarven city?
With aboveground human cities, it is easy enough to assume farmlands and trade and abundant natural resources. It is easier to hand-wave the kinds of things you would find. The instruments of war and siege are more familiar. But in an underground city, I am less certain. I feel more of a need to account for everything required for survival.
And if this is the wrong forum, mods please feel free to move it to the correct one. I considered homebrew but that seemed about custom rules and I just want general advice, within a Pathfinder framework.
Thanks!
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The primary question is: how do they get their food? Do they trade with the surface? Do they have big underground caverns with mushrooms, or bioluminescent fungi that allow them to grow other stuff? Is there an underground river of lake where they catch fish? (Likely white, blind and with weird tentacles.)
Second question is: how do they get rid of their waste? Do they dump it in that underground river? Do they have some gigantic shaft where they dump it in? (And what lives down that shaft?)
And to what extent is that underground river a liability to their security? Do the drow have access to the same river?
The primary question is: how do they get their food? Do they trade with the surface? Do they have big underground caverns with mushrooms, or bioluminescent fungi that allow them to grow other stuff? Is there an underground river of lake where they catch fish? (Likely white, blind and with weird tentacles.)
Second question is: how do they get rid of their waste? Do they dump it in that underground river? Do they have some gigantic shaft where they dump it in? (And what lives down that shaft?)
And to what extent is that underground river a liability to their security? Do the drow have access to the same river?
Food: Besides your initial thoughts of fungi and fish, there would be herds of meat with legs that are fattened with fungi, fish, and themselves. Think current cattle industry. Why not chickens for meat and eggs? KFC has transformed them, why can't dwarves? Their food supply would probably resemble current factory farming due to the shortage of space.
Waste: Um, recycle? Waste is high in nitrates and wonderful fertilizer for fungi. I've always imagined dwarves leading the way into industrial revolution, because the cost of creating more space underground is much higher than above ground, like the difference between urban and rural habitation.
Water: Super important tactically. They could have a river or lake but could just as easily have wells drilled to isolated water caverns. They could also drill wells up to above ground lakes and rivers, so they would have natural pressure for indoor plumbing.
Heat: I don't know if this is well known, but when you get a mile underground, it's warm. The further you go down, the more the internal core melt increases temperature versus the moderation of the cooling above ground weather.
Air: Super important. This is always hand-waved in fantasy but would be very important. Besides air tunnels to the surface, I imagine magic playing a big role in risk mitigation... like diminutive diameter, permanent Gates to the elemental plane of Air.
Light: Meh? Since Pathfinder gave dwarves 60-foot darkvision, I would design the vast majority of architecture to that constraint. No hallways longer than 60-feet. No rooms larger than 60 feet. Most ceilings at 6-feet. In their palatial rooms of the wealthy, nobility and religious, they would be larger with permanent lighting effects. Since darkvision is also only black & white, I imagine everything being colorless until you get into wealthy, nobility and religious decorations.
Layout: Underground, you must always think in three dimensions. I would also start with the purpose of the settlement: mining. Then, expand to encompass residential, commercial, food supply, recreation, and defenses.
Defenses: Lots of traps! Since dwarves and their allies are not typically numerous, they would have lots of traps on all exterior pathways of air, water, passenger or commercial. Think of revolving doors and ways to easily, completely, and temporarily seal corridors by young dwarves. Even the traps should be trapped and alarmed.
cheers
I don't think Dwarves would restrict themselves archtecturally to work around darkvision. Dwarves are re-knowned craftsman and Light is the most common 0 level spell. An argument could be made that dwarves would craft very elegant art-deco light fixtures with permanent versions of the Light spell, or bioluminescent crystals/fungi.
Thanks for the replies. Keep them coming. I definitely need ideas.
I do know that these Dwarves are cut off from the surface. Some years ago (at least one dwarven lifespan ago, maybe more) there was some kind of cataclysm on the surface and access isnt really available. I havent decided what the cataclysm was.
Trade is possible between this dwarven city and one other ... the one they were in a cold war with for a while. There may be trading bazarrs with other underground denizens, but as they are races such as Derro, Duergar, Drow, Mind Flayers, and everything else, that wouldnt be a regular market.
So basically two independent Dwarven "kingdoms in retreat" (from the previous surface cataclysm) ... they probably mostly trade with one another (with some cold war era resentment) but otherwise have to be self sufficient. I want their cities to be fairly large in size despite being underground, due to a very successful surface evacuation effort. So maybe city populations of 5000 each.
Or do you think each dwarven city should have more people? Or less?
I do know that both cities will have access to an underground river and wells, and one has an outpost on the edge of an ndergeound lake nearby, so water is available ... for sustenance, transport, and also the river is a possible security risk as well, in some circumstances.
Thanks!
I don't think Dwarves would restrict themselves archtecturally to work around darkvision. Dwarves are re-knowned craftsman and Light is the most common 0 level spell. An argument could be made that dwarves would craft very elegant art-deco light fixtures with permanent versions of the Light spell, or bioluminescent crystals/fungi.
They probably wouldn't restrict themselves to black and white, or shorter hallways in poorer areas - but it's such a cool idea!
I'm definitely working a subterranean dwarven city's to my current campaign just so I can use this idea :) Good work Jubal!
The cold war was that the king of one city was doing some trading with Duergar and forging some alliances with them, for survival reasons. Rumors said that the king of that city was even involved with Derro and other Chaos Dwarves. Survival can be tough. So there was a period of about 50 years of a cold war, and probably a year or two of outright battle.
Eventually it came out that the king of that city had been corrupted and had been transformed into a Chaos Dwarf due to being corrupted by some Derro. And in my little sandbox, some chaos magic had turned some of the previously existing dwarven and duergar cities unto derro cities by a chaos virus which was spread by undead and drow trying to disrupt dwarven/duergar power over 1000 years (a few lifetimes).
Once the hostile/crazy now-Chaos Dwarf king was discovered, his own people deposed him and his brother rules. That ended the war (hot and cold) and after some decades there is resentment but the cities are more allied than they were. But there is still resentment. The one dwarf city that didnt have a corrupted kng also had easier access to water and the lake. So they had it easier.
Thats kinda what I am thinking anyway.
The ultimate purpose is to have an underground sandbox campaign, and as the party are good in alignment, I wanted to provide a base of operations. But they are lost in the open underground currently, having all been cursed and pulled in from other worlds. So I have not had to detail "home base" yet. Which could be either city, or elsewhere, as they prefer.
So right now, I have time to think about it.
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One of the key elements of my home grown campaign world is a major dwarven kingdom which is built under the mountains. The kingdom is essentially one giant city.
The major elements of the dwarven kingdom/city are as follows:
1. The dwarves maintain extensive grain crops and herds of feed animals in remote mountain valleys accessible only from dwarven tunnels, but open to the air. In these valleys they raise cattle, sheep, pigs, goats, barley, hops, wheat, etc. In some cases they actually partner with humans or other races to live in the valleys as herdsmen or farmers for years at a time (think of programmers who move to Saudi Arabia for five years at a premium and then return home). This is also where they get the raw materials to brew their famous dwarven ale.
2. Underground caverns are full of fungi, and underground rivers, lakes and seas provide a bounty of blind fish and invertebrates. The giant albino shrimp of the dwarves is a renowned delicacy throughout the civilized lands, and is exported as a cash crop.
3. Deep underground are mostly secret tunnels which connect to ancient passages. Most of these are firmly locked up and guarded. They are heavily trapped and dwarven mages have set many detection and alarm spells in the tunnels. Although it is rarely spoken of, the dwarves maintain trade with Drow and other underground races. Trade includes the exchange of rare gems and metals (particularly mithril) which the dwarves never have enough of, for dwarven armor, dwarven ale and other dwarven trade goods.
4. "Dark dwarves" are not unheard of either, and in many cases they provide the liaison between dwarves and other underground races.
5. Dwarven architecture blends the darkness with the light, much as dwarves themselves represent a link between two worlds. Dwarves do not live in the dark, they love the sight of light shining on, through and reflecting off of gems and precious metals far too much. For that reason the dwarven city has many great silver-coated shafts bringing sunlight deep into the city, where it is reflected and directed into many rooms. They also use magic to create light where they want it and that is just about everywhere. The great dwarven city is no dark and gloomy place, it is a place of splendor and beauty with color everywhere. Darkvision has no color, and dwarves appreciate darkvision for its utility, but they do not live in the dark.
6. The dwarven city also has great shafts which direct fresh air through the city. They have learned that they can use the differential pressures between openings to the outside world to drive fresh air through the city without the need for mechanical or magical means. They just let nature take its course. As such the dwarven city is not stuffy and smelly.
7. Water from underground rivers and lakes is pumped through the city as well, and dwarves are among the few civilized races that have running water and active sewage processing.
8. In the event of a war or a need to shut off the city, all of these outside systems can be closed. Dwarves can manage for long periods of time in conditions that would sap the strength of humans or elves. But eventually they need air and water regardless. They mostly rely on the location of their shafts, pipes and tunnels being secret to keep water, food and air flowing through the city.
9. River of fire. One of the outlying tunnels(Which is treated like a town) found a vein of lava. Combined with water it gives them steam power, and the heat is enough to smelt iron. The forge is made of a rock with a higher melting temperature, bordered on the back and under by lava.
I want their cities to be fairly large in size despite being underground, due to a very successful surface evacuation effort. So maybe city populations of 5000 each.
Or do you think each dwarven city should have more people? Or less?
The OGC has a good game mechanics for settlement sizes. They are guidelines, so dwarves with longer lifespans and generation spans may be richer per capita and have higher spell-casting per capita than the guidelines.
Instead of one big city, I would structure it as a city and suburbs where the 'burbs are where most of the population live, work in mining or food factories, and have quick shopping (local craftsmen and staple groceries) and entertainment (taverns). The city center has the markets, specialty craftsmen, government, and big entertainment. From a defensible point of view each of these areas would be compartmentalized, like how modern military ships are designed.
I personally like the 60-feet design constraint, because it's the basic lack of civilization measure. More than 60-feet dimensions, light, and color decorations would be luxuries that wealthy can enjoy.
Not all cities are 100% beautiful. I imagine dwarven cities behave similarly to modern urban areas where there are newer sections and older sections, well-maintained areas, and poorer dangerous areas. Over time, these areas cycle as the poor areas become opportunities for re-investment and the newer areas age.
By cutting off the dwarves from topside, clean air would be a big deal. Maybe a central gate to elemental plane of air with ventilation ducts throughout the city that can be traveled by small and sneaky people. A few scenes in the movie Aliens comes to mind.
Also, without non-dwarf, immigrant labor, you need to account for poor dwarves doing the uneducated jobs, e.g. physically moving things from point A to point B. Therefore, you may need to inflate population... or use the settlement rules as is. Think about the current US politics of the 99% and 1%. With 5000 dwarves, 1% is only 50 accounting for entire families or clans of the elite that own the plurality of wealth.
If you want Trade, maybe design intermediate villages that thrive on trade if you don't want the drow or mind flayers trading their goods in the dwarven city center.
cheers
Dot for interest
Rothe (bison-like herd animals) would be pretty tasty.
Dotting.
Maybe there's a particular dwarven clan specializing in non-dwarf trade or two for competition. One does drow and mind flayers, the other derro, snirfi... These either travel to those cities or just act as middlemen.
Another idea of city architecture is to have service layers between the habitable floors as a design standard. These service layers could be enormous grids where everything gets plumbed: sewage, clean water, clean air, bad air, and maybe those compressed air communication tubes. Then there would be ducts, vents, and pipes connecting the living areas to the service layers. Then you could dedicated clans for service: one for water, and one for air... Then, you might need a third as chimney sweeps for the chimney vents, or they could be a cadet clan of the air clan. What do they use for fuel? dried sewage bricks, sold by the cadet clan of the water clan.
cheers
Svirfneblin are a good aligned underground race the dwarves could trade with, and honestly I see kobolds as being oppurtinistic due to their weakness but not as evil overall. I think anyone who shows them kindness will practically be worshipped (perhaps literally).
Thanks, I appreciate all the additional ideas.
Is the city one giant cavern with some lesser caverns nearby? Is it a confusing and complex series of tunnels dug and re-dug to make an "ant farm" style of city? Or is it a joining of many large caverns where each clan has it's own holdings in sort of an underground manorial/feudal system?
How much social/political equanimity exists for the dwarves that live there?
Is it ruled by a single person? an assembly? the temple? the elders? Does that entity truly rule? or is rulership contested?
The now crazy, ex king, brother is now a merchant. A played out vein of iron or coal is now a sort of slum where the outcasts live. The main city has periodic inspections and a marshal to prevent them from having weapons or combat magic.
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Wow, this is a very cool question and one I've been thinking about a lot recently.
A dwarven city produces some of its own food, but mostly the dwarves represent a concentration of rare craftsmanship and mineral wealth that allow them to trade for the food they need. If did get cut off from the surface it would a calamity as dwarven culture struggles to adapt to self sufficiency. Would it be an adaptation they succeed at or would they fall to ruin?
Dwarves would need alliances to survive such a calamity, but many of the underworld races are weird, evil or both. What compromises would the very traditional dwarves be willing to make? Could they escape from their shell or will they fall into darkness and desolation.
No doubt some dwarves would instead flee from such a calamity and join with other surface societies. Perhaps reclaiming past glories becomes a cultural survival issue. You will either reclaim the lost dwarven city and once more gain your independence or you will have to forever accept that you are now only a small minority in a great human empire. Bards tell tales of the days of dwarven glory, but everyone knows those days are long gone...
Or are they?
More than that, if you'd like to see my long form 6-book 600+ page Pathfinder-compatible answer to the question "what is a dwarven city and its environs like?", please check out Throne of Night when it becomes available in 2013.
Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games
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There are some thoughts on dwarven life underground in this thread.
Either a chemosynthetic food chain (similar to that found around deep sea volcanic vents in the real world) or a food chain able to metabolize the 'mysterious underdark radiations' of Greyhawk and the Realms (or, ideally, *both*), you can get around the need for sunlight and have true sunless ecosystems.
Depending on the level of magic you want, you could also have water, food and waste managed by magic. A really isolated Dwarven stronghold could have a fixed magical item that provides all their needs, allowing them to survive completely cut off, surrounded by all sorts of nasties. They stay there because they can't move the food producing item, and if they ever get visitors, everything needs to be rationed because there's a hard limit to how much it can produce.
Could be an interesting setting.
Very interesting, though now I need to make a list of chemosynthetic beings on our planet.
There's fungi, Anerobic bacteria(tubeworms eat these), and fossil evidence of microbes that predated cells and oxygen.
Depending on the level of magic you want, you could also have water, food and waste managed by magic. A really isolated Dwarven stronghold could have a fixed magical item that provides all their needs, allowing them to survive completely cut off, surrounded by all sorts of nasties. They stay there because they can't move the food producing item, and if they ever get visitors, everything needs to be rationed because there's a hard limit to how much it can produce.
Could be an interesting setting.
I like this a lot.
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As I understand it, a chemosynthetic ecosystem would be unlikely to develop on it's own (but even that's a humanocentric assumption, for now, based off of how life evolved on this one planet...), but originally-photosynthetic critters evolving to survive in a lightless chemical-rich environment (or a 'magical underdark radiation'-rich lightless environment, for that matter) would be quite plausible.
Various other critters would soon follow, like crabs, normally dependent on a photosynthetic ecosystem, opportunistically joining the chemosynthetic food chain as well.
So, as long as there is some sort of algae or plankton or whatever that can turn chemicals into protein (or 'magical underdark radiation' into protein), the food chain will sort itself out, as stuff shows up to eat it (and get eaten in turn).
Fantasy life-forms that can metabolize rock and ore (purple worms) or digest pretty much *anything* (green slime) or can create biomass by metabolizing other energies or forces (brown mold!) can also provide some extra avenues, assuming the existence of stuff that can grow in purple worm poop (leaving long winding temporary tunnel-gardens filled with fungi and cave crickets and mole rats living off of the purple worm waste, and each other) or that can eat green slime or brown mold safely and is itself edible by other creatures (essentially turning the hazards into a food source, after being consumed by the next tier of critters).
Low level spells like Create Water [0], Purify Food and Drink [0], Goodberry [1st], Dream Feast [1st], Air Bubble [1st], Continual Flame [2/3], and Create Food and Water [3rd] could be useful here in times of dire need or for simple functionality.
The defenses would have to be built with three dimensions in mind. If the area under the world is more akin to that in Journey to the Center of the Earth than our actual interior, then things could be very liveable indeed.
The center of the city might have a sunstone. This is a special item, that is not made by spellcasters. If a clear stone is exposed to direct sunlight daily for years, there is a 1% chance per year that it will become a sunstone. A sunstone gives off true sunlight, light, warmth, and harm to some undead, forever. The magic cannot be stopped except by shattering it through it's center. The suggested 50,000 base cost skyrockets when you can never get back to the surface.
If the characters find another one, the cold war might restart. If word gets out that some darkstarkers have one locked away, you get a hot war. A source of sunlight is worth a lot of lives.
Dotted for later reading.
You can't look directly at the sunstone. The chance is 1% per year, non cumulative.
You can't look directly at the sunstone. The chance is 1% per year, non cumulative.
I know how my next PF character is going to get fabulously wealthy now... All I need is a bunch of clear crystal and an open field and it's just a matter of time...
Most adventure paths only take a year. Knowledge nature or geography might help you find a mountain with a lot of quartz.