So,
Just to make sure my build is valid (and hilarious), would wielding a whip and having enlarge person allow me to attack in a 30 foot radius or so? 15 foot reach + enlarge for twice that? and Improved Whip Mastery would allow me to threaten to 15 feet? (10 foot natural plus 5, as per feat)
I want to make sure I'm doing this by the rules.
You do not threaten squares while using a whip without Improved Whip Mastery, though you can attack people 5, 10, and 15 feet away. Improved Whip Mastery gives you the ability to threaten your natural reach, +5 feet. Now either this means you threaten 10 feet around you, or 20 feet around you, depending on if they meant natural reach to describe the reach of your character, or the reach of your character with your whip.
This probably needs a FaQ or an errata.
JJ has ruled that being Large with a whip lets you attack opponents within 30 feet. On the other hand, Balors only have 20-foot reach with whips.
yeah, the balor/JJ thing is kind of too bad. i would have to say that "jj is wrong" barring new info.
re: natural reach, I would go with your own inherent reach, the feat says 'YOUR natural reach' when 'increase the whip's reach by 5' would othwerwise be standard wording if that type of thing was intended, IMHO.
Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.
Reach weapons double (or triple in case of a whip) your natural reach. The natural reach of a large creature is 10ft, 20ft with a reach weapon und 30ft with a whip. That is RAW.
The balor is an exception .. maybe a typo or a copy from 3.0 / 3.5 or the developers want it this way. Poor balor :)
Really? I don't believe there is any RAW describing a 'formula' for whip.
AFAIK the only RAW for whip is that it has 15' reach, irrespective of wielder/weapon size.
Where do you get triple natural reach from RAW?
btw, if you do know where this is stated in the rules, does it also state how 0' reach creatures are handled, both for normal reach weapons and whips? per RAW i don't know anything that changes 'double your natural reach', which of course doesn't mean much for 0' reach characters.
Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, ...
Medium creature = 5ft nat. reach
Medium long spear = 10ft reach = doubled natural reachMedium whip = 15ft reach = tripled natural reach
That matches with the ruling of JJ. The balor is an exception as i said before.
Natural reach of 0ft. and reach weapons is a problem and not defined in RAW. No RAW = not possible ? Maybe but everything else is a houserule.
umm... OK, so there ISN'T any RAW on non medium/15' whip reach (or a general formula for it).
Sure, I understand that your formula 'makes sense',
But we can also invent a formula that is adding on 10' to base reach, and that is also consistent with the Balor.
That would mean above Large size whips would reach less far than normal Reach weapons,
but there isn't any rule saying that whips always must reach further than normal reach weapons, so no problem with RAW there.
I'm not saying that it's IMPLAUSIBLE that the INTENT is to triple Reach, and that Balor may be in error,
but there is nowhere in the rules that gives us a formula stating this 'triple Reach' concept,
and there is multiple ways to arrive at the medium Whip stats given in the Equipment chapter BESIDES '3x Reach'.
(besides the one I mentioned, you could also simply add 5' reach to normal Reach weapons, which would make whips always reach further than normal reach weapons even at larger sizes, but by a fixed amount not a scaling one)
But we can't say for now because the rules don't give us the formula, and multiple formulas can align with the examples given.
(or not all the examples given, depending if one wants to consider the Balor correct or not)
RAW-
CRB p.145
Reach: You can use a reach weapon to strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can't use it against an adjacent foe.CRB p.149
Whip: ... The whip is treated as a melee weapon with a 15-foot reach... In addition unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).CRB p.195
,,, Large or Larger creatures using reach weapons can strike up to double their natural reach but can't strike at their natural reach or less.
A strictly literal reading suggests either that you have a 15' reach with a whip regardless of size, or that a large or larger creature with a whip has the same reach they would have with a normal reach weapon, but without the adjacent blindspot (making the extra 5' medium and smaller creatures get a special bonus, which we're denying big guys because wow that is already a pretty thick range for attacking).
Triple your base reach seems like a reasonable inference of intent though.
Personally, I'm more curious how reach weapons work for tiny and smaller creatures. I would assume reach weapons and whips work the same way for them as for medium creatures, since that last quote specifically refers to creatures on the big end. Why specify if that applied at every size?
Ahhhh this debate. Perhaps I should dig up the thread where this was hashed out in considerable detail. Then again, naw..maybe something new will come of it. LOL
- Gauss
I'm not saying that it's IMPLAUSIBLE that the INTENT is to triple Reach, and that Balor may be in error,
but there is nowhere in the rules that gives us a formula stating this 'triple Reach' concept,
Maybe the Balor has very short arms or he has a special whip or he only wants a 20ft reach because he loves "close" combat or it is simply some old ruling.
The rules say ..
Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, ...
Most .. not all double the natural reach. x1 natural reach is absurd, x3 sound plausible if i take the look at the whip (only? weapon with 15ft reach).
Tiny and smaller creatures are another problem. I would rule 0ft -> with reach 5ft -> with whip 10ft but that is a houserule.
Ask your GM. Discuessing to the limit is useless if your GM simply says NO.
At last .,. Gauss is correct. There are a lot of threads in the forums regarding Reach, inapprox. weapons and armor size, shield fighting, rapidshot+manyshot, cleave, ...