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So I'm running a fairly evil campaign, and one of my players ran by me with a question. I'm stumped with how to answer this question:
As per the feat Skeletal Summoner, he can add the Skeleton Template to any of his summons once a day.
He brought up the idea of having the Skeletal Template on a summoned Elemental creature. After looking through the feat and the template, there seems to be a set of loop holes that go around each other on both.
The following are quotes from the same two sites I got the links to above. The loops are bolded.
Quoted from the PFSRD for Skeletal Summoner: Once per day, when you cast "summon monster," you may summon a skeletal version of one of the creatures on that spell's summoning list (apply the skeleton template to that creature to create this monster).
Quoted from the PFSRD for Skeleton Template: “Skeleton” is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
Therein lies my problem.
An Elemental is a corporeal creature, but does not have a skeletal system. But according to the feat, you apply the template to "create" the creature. Does this mean the creature never existed before and therefore doesn't follow the rules that we know of?
I could use a little assistance from some experienced players and GMs. Sorry about the big post, but I needed to get the problem out there.
You can't make anything without a skeleton into a skeleton. Period.
Agreed. "You may summon a skeletal version of one of the creatures..." - it doesn't say you can summon a skeletal version of absolutely any creature on the list. If you can't apply the template to a creature, you can't summon a skeletal version.
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Yep, no skeleton means no skeleton.
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RAW no, but check the outcome of an elemental skeleton (following creation rules, then check immunities, resistance, DR...) and if it does not seems overpowered, why not !
furthermore, it's only 1/Day, so it could be a bit more powerful without breaking anything.
as GM I'd allow it, sounds too cool.
you could look at it as a skeleton with some kind of elemental bent as opposed to an elemental with a skeleton. Kind of makes for some interesting flavour, like a ifrits skeleton that has been cursed or something.
He could use beings with an elemental subtype that have a skeleton.
I am thinking about things like a salamander. I guess it isn't on the lists for summon monster (I have no idea what's on) just as an idea.
Balancewise, I cannot see why you should disallow it.
Compared to a Large Fire Elemental a skeletal version would:
Gain the following:
- +2 dex
- Undead Immunities, DR 5/bludgeoning, and cold immunity.
Lose the following:
- 2 natural armor
- Elemental immunities, DR 5/-, and fire immunity
- 24 less hp (from 60 to 36)
- 2 BAB
- 5 feats, including weapon finesse, which is necessary for it to hit any enemies.
- all skill ranks.
- It should lose the Burn ability, given that it is writen as a special attack, but it could reasonably be argued that it is actually a special quality that affects the slam attack.
Basically we have a very bad deal for the character doing to summoning, if he like to do so anyway, I'd say go ahead..
I played a skeleton summoner (the actual class) and in my opinion the skeleton template is just not worth it.
Now, the actual skeletons you get with SMI are worth it. So very much worth it. Not a lot will get through that DR. (Bites from monsters do do blunt damage though.)
I kept using skeletons up to about 6th level, then I switched to lantern archons.
If it is a home game, and you're ok with the idea, check into adding bloody and blazing skeletons to the list.