The antisemitism of the Nazis wasn't religiously motivated, but nationalistic. The roots lay in the German nationalist movement of the 19th century. Since there was no common political or cultural ground to be found among all the small states of the former Holy Roman Empire, the nationalists fell back on "blood". Hence their antisemitism, since, by that reasoning, Jews couldn't considered to be of German descent. The Nazis took that to the extreme.I'm going to spoiler tag this because it's long...
** spoiler omitted **...
Interesting stuff.
I should have made clearer when I wrote that I agreed with Fabius that it was simply that I agreed that the Nazis weren't basically the military arm of the Catholic right wing.
I don't know enough about Nazi ideology to weigh how much of their bullshiznit was based on religious bullshiznit, nationalist bullshiznit or pseudoscientific bullshiznit.
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If any other non-Americans would like to weigh in on how the French Revolution was seen in the history of your country or even today, please, feel free.
Depends on whether or not you are in La Belle Province or not, and whether or not you took your social studies in french or in english. Also I guess, how old you are. The catholic church and its allies ran Quebec up until about 1960. I imagine they weren't too fond of the revolution (so bastille day not an official holiday but St. Jean Baptiste day is). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_Noirceur.
I would not classify them as the military arm of the Catholic church. For one, significant portions of Germany were Protestant, including several major industrial sectors.
Politically, the country had only unified in 1871. By 1940, there were still plenty of people old enough to actually remember the separate German states, like Bavaria. There are even some people who, to this day, consider themselves Bavarian first and German second.
What the Nazi's did take from religion, besides fervor building and iconography, was a cultural dislike/hatred for the Jews. Ever since the First Crusade, sporadic violence had been perpetrated on Jewish communities in Germany.
A major influence on the "Jews draining society" was the Russian expulsion of Jews at the end of the 19th century. Thousands of poor refugees arrived with no money and no education, plus they spoke other languages and were even more different than German Jews. So now you have the equivalent of Mexican immigrant workers combined with 900 years of state sponsored violence.
If any other non-Americans would like to weigh in on how the French Revolution was seen in the history of your country or even today, please, feel free.Depends on whether or not you are in La Belle Province or not, and whether or not you took your social studies in french or in english. Also I guess, how old you are. The catholic church and its allies ran Quebec up until about 1960. I imagine they weren't too fond of the revolution (so bastille day not an official holiday but St. Jean Baptiste day is). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_Noirceur.
See what I mean, Set?
Yes, I my old comrades made me read a lot about the history of Quebec back in the nineties when they were having votes on self-determination and what not.
I thought there had been some great big labor battles (maybe a general strike?) in the 1968-1972 era, but all I can find on the internet is The October Crisis.
And here's an interesting book I read a long time ago.
I would not classify them as the military arm of the Catholic church.
What I mean by that statement is more that, Fascism achieved in a few short years what the church dared not for centuries. Their goals and their scapegoats were much the same: nothing would please the church more than the reunification of the Holy Roman Empire, and if doing so by way of ethnic cleansing* of the Jews all the better. While there was no explicit cooperation, there was certainly an understanding.
I think you're misinterpreting my sentiment to mean that all Nazis were Catholic, which is clearly untrue.
*ethnic cleansing here means its original meaning, which is relocation not murder, of outsider ethnic groups. I don't think the Catholic church was privy to the Final Solution, but that doesn't mean its hands are clean.
Of course, one of the components of the formation of Nazism was the Freikorps, the troops that the Social Democrats used to murder the heroic martyrs of the German proletariat, Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht.
The failure of the Spartakus Uprising left the Bolsheviks isolated and under the gun and, ultimately, led to the Soviet Union's descent into Stalinist barbarism.
Thank you, social democrats and democratic socialists.
Two major periods of striking in quebec, the asbestos miners in 1949 (and then more in the 50s) which got parts of the Church on side with labour, and the 1972 common front general strike.
The 60s was the Quiet Revolution.
So, this is funny:
There is no wikipedia page for the Common Front strike.
You type it into Google and all you get are commie sites.
I see one of my all time faves, and the article starts:
"The general strike that engulfed Quebec in the spring of 1972 was the most deep-going class battle North America had seen in many decades—or has seen since. Yet even the basic facts of the strike, let alone its lessons, are little known to militant workers or leftist youth today, including in Quebec."
Now, if you excuse me, I'm going to go watch that movie about the FLQ.
The Church at that time was not going to set itself up as a poltical target by issuing a mostly meaningless decree. Besides Excommunication had largely gone out of fashion being seen as a tool of the bad old days of the Catholic Inquisition. But mainly it was a decision that the Church could do more good working inside the state than by setting itself up as an opposition government. Post war apparantly the Church decided to leave details like punishment up to Nuremburg. It's not generally Church policy to excommunicate sinners, it tries to get them to repent instead.
Except for that whole divorce thing. Or the church's insistence on excommunicating anyone having to do with abortion.
Murdering millions of jews? Look, look, we'll work with you on that and, certainly, it's something frowned upon. But divorce? SOME THINGS THIS CHURCH WILL NOT ABIDE!
Edit: My point is that the church has tools to bear to affect behavioral change in its clergy as well as the laity, be they excommunication or interdict or simply the council of confession. That the church did not bring those tools to bear, either to prevent the mistreatment and wholesale slaughter of the Jews (and others!) or punitively for those who participated in it, regardless of whether their inaction was due to complicity or complacency, it sends the same message.
ALSO- I'm done with the derail now, HONEST! No more Nazi shop talk!
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Germany's history of anti-semitism goes back way further than the 19th century. I daresay the foundation goes back to the 10th century, or earlier.
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It is kind of hard to debate religion and its taste for totalitarianism when people actually think communism is atheist by its nature. It is, of course, a transcendent religion, aimed at the Classless Society, for which everyone is expected to make sacrifices. And religions tend not to appreciate competition...
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It is kind of hard to debate religion and its taste for totalitarianism when people actually think communism is atheist by its nature. It is, of course, a transcendent religion, aimed at the Classless Society, for which everyone is expected to make sacrifices. And religions tend not to appreciate competition...
Except in reality communism never IS classless, just leaders and peasants. The elite will still be in charge and the rest equal in poverty. On a small scale communism works and can be great (voluntary hippy communes etc) but as a large governmental structure it is bad
Well, that sure was an interesting movie. I highly recommend watching it.
Checked in on RT on the way over and found this breakingish news from Paris.
Well, you claim that the fact that their claims do not match up with the reality makes communism LESS of a religion???
Sissyl, baby, come back to the party.
[bubble bubble bubble]
Well, that sure was an interesting movie. I highly recommend watching it.
Checked in on RT on the way over and found this breakingish news from Paris.
I wonder what a tolerable assassination is...
That, as Sissyl points out, no Nazi was ever excommunicated for participation in the Holocaust, speaks VOLUMES as to the actual viewpoint of the Catholic church on the subject. A good deal of high ranking Nazis were Catholic and, whether Hitler believed in it or not he went to church and paid lipservice to religion because he knew it was important to kiss the rings of the Catholic church and to convince his people that what he was doing was right in the eyes of god.The Church at that time was not going to set itself up as a poltical target by issuing a mostly meaningless decree. Besides Excommunication had largely gone out of fashion being seen as a tool of the bad old days of the Catholic Inquisition. But mainly it was a decision that the Church could do more good working inside the state than by setting itself up as an opposition government. Post war apparantly the Church decided to leave details like punishment up to Nuremburg. It's not generally Church policy to excommunicate sinners, it tries to get them to repent instead.
Another factor on the churches actions was that it didn't want to risk itself just for a few Jews. Jews were unbelievers, more than that even, they had REJECTED God. The Catholic Church has regularly stone-walled revealing information about their conduct during WW2, including the fact that they actively silenced clergy members as high as bishops in Germany during the build up to the war.
Catholic opposition to the euthanasia programs actually helped end them in 1941 in Germany. Clemens von Galen was very influential and managed to lead catholics in a strong opposition to some racist programs and ideas. Hitler started dissolving monasteries and abbeys in an effort to help silence them and reduce the chances of passive resistance by Catholics. If the central hierarchy of the church had directly opposed Hitler, it wouldn't have stopped him, but it would have slowed him down and weakened him.
The Reichskonkordat lent legitimacy to the Nazi government and was effective in helping silence many politicians in the center of the German political spectrum. It was the first foreign entity that tacitly gave Hitler approval for violating the Treaty of Versailles, which made it easier to justify doing so both at home and abroad.
I wonder what a tolerable assassination is...Well, that sure was an interesting movie. I highly recommend watching it.
Checked in on RT on the way over and found this breakingish news from Paris.
One that is carried out quietly, with little to no media exposure, upon a target whose existence was inconvenient for whomever gets to decide whether it is tolerable or not.
If any other non-Americans would like to weigh in on how the French Revolution was seen in the history of your country or even today, please, feel free.
Same as the British view, decadent inept royals were too horrible to the lower classes and lost their heads.
Also people have a tendency to forget that British had been there done that.. That parliament and the Roundheads had established a republic in Britain. Unfortunatley it was run by Puritans that banned pubs, sport, and Christmas and so they Restored the monarchy (that and Oliver Cromwell was a dick).
So yeh the Brits had had a parliamentary revolution thrown out the monarchy and established a Republic well before little George Washington was a sparkle in the milkmans eye.
Before our fellow Britishiznoids get all superior, our Dutch comrades have something to say.
Just saying overthrowing the monarchy and establishing a republic ain't new.
Musical interlude Charles II .
Important home work for you DBug, who was Carlo Tresca and what happened to him on this day.
A musical interlude that history has afforded us.
I tried to listen, but it's ska. And the singer is HORRIBLE.
The only Ska I can abide is Madness, and even then, only just ;)
Just saying overthrowing the monarchy and establishing a republic ain't new.
Politroll contrarianitis strikes again, sorry. Also, I really liked Comrade Longears's use of the word "Britishiznoids" above.
I totally knew who Tresca was (here in New England we recently celebrated the 100th anniversary of the Bread and Roses strike), but I didn't know how he died.
[Removes hat and fires a three-volley salute]
I, alas, can't rock out at the moment, but any link with the words "Permanent Revolution" is, of course, the shiznit in my book.
Will be back later to link more ska for Citizen Meatrace.
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HEY GOBBO!
I MADE YOU A MIX TAPE!
Oh thank you, Citizen Meatrace. I will listen to it after the sun comes up and my housemates are awake.
As for me, I am booking off one day before I start my third week of vacation.
U-nion! U-nion! U-nion!
Alas, I am still up at 4 in the morning. :(
Counterpunch had a bunch of interesting articles in the past couple of days, a few of which I'll link:
William Blum on The Death of bin Laden, Revisited
and
Why the US Should Extradite a the Murderer of Victor Jara
and
A musical interlude that history has afforded us.
So what's that, a rock opera about the Soviet Union?
HEY GOBBO!
I MADE YOU A MIX TAPE!
Hee hee! Now I've got your name.
You're going into the Galtan Gulag Archipelago!
[blushes at someone making me a mixtape, which hasn't happened since Lisa Nelson, which, god, was over 12 years ago...]
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A musical interlude that history has afforded us.I tried to listen, but it's ska. And the singer is HORRIBLE.
The only Ska I can abide is Madness, and even then, only just ;)
I like punk music, so I've learned to overlook bad singers. I know they're not good, but I just don't care. I also have no problem with ska.
@Comrade Doodlebug: as far as I know it's a concept album based on the life of Leon Trotsky. An interview with a band member about the album.
@Comrade Doodlebug: as far as I know it's a concept album based on the life of Leon Trotsky. An interview with a band member about the album.
Huh, I'll have to give it another listen.
As for ska: Jamaican ska rulez!! Britishiznoid second wave rules!!
After that I'm not terribly interested. The Mighty Mighty Bosstones were an up and coming band when I was a wee goblin, and I even sold one of them a socialist newpaper once!
I'm mostly with you. 3rd wave ska is very hit and miss, most of it miss. I do love me some japanese ska though, it's just so cheerful and happy. I don't listen to it often, but it has it's time and place IMO.
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One of those articles did use one of my favorite lines ever:
I know! Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War on Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore? It'll be just like that!
One of those articles did use one of my favorite lines ever:
I know! Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War on Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore? It'll be just like that!original source
Just the kind of sick, black humor shiznit that makes me go Hee hee!
Just the kind of sick, black humor shiznit that makes me go Hee hee!One of those articles did use one of my favorite lines ever:
I know! Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War on Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore? It'll be just like that!original source
What's it called when you laugh and cry at the same, and end up choking on your tears?
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Try this one, its The Wailers (Bob Marley) first single, being backed by the fathers of Ska, the Skatalites.
While I'm not a big Bob Marley fan, that was pretty good I must admit.
The type of Reggae I listen to GOES.MORE.LIKE.THIS.| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
What's it called when you laugh and cry at the same, and end up choking on your tears?
Life
original sourceJust the kind of sick, black humor shiznit that makes me go Hee hee! What's it called when you laugh and cry at the same, and end up choking on your tears?
I don't know what it's called, but I know what you mean.
Life
What's it called when you laugh and cry at the same, and end up choking on your tears?
Oh yeah, that's what it's called.
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So do you think the OP went away from this thread all reassured about cultural marxism? Haven't heard from them in a while.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfGpVcdqeS0
Just feel like posting that.
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Try this one, its The Wailers (Bob Marley) first single, being backed by the fathers of Ska, the Skatalites.While I'm not a big Bob Marley fan, that was pretty good I must admit.
The type of Reggae I listen to GOES.MORE.LIKE.THIS.
I like reggae just fine, but I tend towards faster music. It's not just speed, but a more ephemeral quality that gets me going. Sinnerman by Nina Simone being a prime example. I sometimes describe it as a sense of urgency.
Did you just mention Nina Simone? /Gush
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They use a version of that or something similar to that song in an excellent episode of Babylon 5. G'karr's revenge and a bit of Londo's redemption irrc.
ah, here we go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYKloZRwLu4
Warning, spoilers if you haven't watched the season. Suck it Lord Refa!