Well, at least according to the Beastiary:
AC 30 is roughly CR 15
190hp is about CR 13.5
An attack bonus of +21 is roughly CR 12
Reach doesn't affect CR - its a function of size only.
The real problem is the average damage of the attack. Assuming it wasn't a typo, with 18 attacks, the average damage is 246.5 damage per round. The table stops at 120 damage, as high for a CR 20. So the damage is off the table. Since the last part of the table seems to be increasing in multiples of 10, you could extrapolate. 246.5 damage could be appropriate for a CR 33.
Ignoring the attacks, I would put it at about 13-14. But Its only a rough guess, more information would be needed.
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An argument about this apear in another thread.
consider this numbers
AC 30
190 Hps
reach 10 or maybe 15 ft.
16 attacks at +21 (1d8+6), 2 other attacks at +21 (2d6+6)
PounceWhitout any other information the next information about he monster what CR whould you think the monster is?
Give all of the information please.
I have read the other thread, so I feel I am safe in saying you are attempting an "Appeal to Popularity" fallacy by not providing all information and trying to create a base of support off of incomplete facts.
All data is required for a CR.
Apparently, this is a 16-headed Fast Zombie hydra. Its saves would be Fort +6, Ref+6, and Will +12. The saves put it at a rough CR 8.
A normal 16-headed hydra is CR 15, making it a zombie drops that to CR 7. It loses all but 1 of its attacks (can only take a standard action per round.) Fast Zombie removes that, and so should make it roughly CR 15 again.
Hydra CR has always been messed up, though. This is just an example of that.
An argument about this apear in another thread.
consider this numbers
AC 30
190 Hps
reach 10 or maybe 15 ft.
16 attacks at +21 (1d8+6), 2 other attacks at +21 (2d6+6)
PounceWhitout any other information the next information about he monster what CR whould you think the monster is?
Give all of the information please.
I have read the other thread, so I feel I am safe in saying you are attempting an "Appeal to Popularity" fallacy by not providing all information and trying to create a base of support off of incomplete facts.
All data is required for a CR.
As you can see in the other thread the data is not complete.
Also I was aware of that fallacy but I just could not resist. But the monster do not have intelligence, is an undead, I think it have 20 HD, movement of 30 ft and no feats.
Also I am aware that even if all peole in this thread agree that do not make that opinio a truth.
Understood.
Then is your assertion that taking a monster like the 20 HD Hydra used to create this example, applying the zombie template, thus making it a CR7 by the bestiary rules, and then applying a +0 CR template such as fast Zombie is overpowered?
Or
Is your assertion that, all monsters must be valued by the monster table individually and that the template system is completely worthless in at least some cases?
What exactly are you trying to prove?
Please understand I am not trying to belittle you just understand your position.
@ Covent
In this thread i just want to know the opinion of peole of how to asing CR to amonster and that if a mosnter that have such a highg numbers could still be considered a low-mid level opponent.
But yea, i think you look at what the monster could do and then you make the call about its CR.
A beast that can chargepounce to death 3 7th level Pcs in the first round can not be a CR 7 monster IMO.
Ah, so your assertion is then that every monster should be individually assessed and judged regardless of what CR value the Bestiary or other manual gives for it, correct?
Edit: A question: Do you have a set of criteria that accounts for differences such as Jeraa points out below?
Also, how did you get 190 hit points? As a 20hit die, it would have 20d8 hit points. Its Charisma of 10 gives it no bonus hit points. It should only have 90 hit points.
Also, how is its AC 30? As a zombie, its natural armor is based on its size, not the hydras base natural armor. Huge zombies have +4 natural armor. The hydra fast zombie would get +2 from Dexterity, and -2 from size. Its AC should be 14.
At (roughly) CR 15, its a glass cannon. Sure it can do a massive amount of damage, but it drops quickly. Especially since it looses its fast healing and Regenerate Head abilities, and no damage reduction. Its saves, hit points, and AC sucks.
Ah, so your assertion is then that every monster should be individually assessed and judged regardless of what CR value the Bestiary or other manual gives for it, correct?@ Covent
In this thread i just want to know the opinion of peole of how to asing CR to amonster and that if a mosnter that have such a highg numbers could still be considered a low-mid level opponent.
But yea, i think you look at what the monster could do and then you make the call about its CR.
A beast that can chargepounce to death 3 7th level Pcs in the first round can not be a CR 7 monster IMO.
I think the book gives good guidelines (monster and item creation for example) and most of cases to follow that guidelines the result is good enogh.
But if you want to be smart and follow the "strict" raw and just mop the floor with your party then "i just follow the rules" would not be an excuse.
Ok, So then are you saying that the Bestiaries are generally correct, but in a few outlying cases they may not generate a commensurate CR due to some unforeseen consequences?
Give all of the information please.
I have read the other thread, so I feel I am safe in saying you are attempting an "Appeal to Popularity" fallacy by not providing all information and trying to create a base of support off of incomplete facts.
All data is required for a CR.
Since this is all because of an encounter in a hypothetical adventure I posted, and I'm the one who posted the statistics on the creature, I'll gladly provide all the information on the creature in question, thanks to a great poster who PMed me for this thread and the creature I posted was being discussed.
The creature is a 16 HD zombie hydra with the zombie (fast) template applied to it. Because it is a Huge sized creature, it gains 4 bonus hit dice due to being a zombie. It loses all special attacks (including Pounce, despite what the OP declares), loses its fast healing, does not regrow heads, and gains the Toughness feat (its correct HP is 110 HP, there is a typo in my original post and when noticed it was too late to fix).
It is CR 7 because the Zombie Template declares that it is CR 7, and the fast zombie adjustment to the base zombie likewise does not change this. I think CR 7 is not unfair because it's definitely no way it's significantly higher than this because of how its weaknesses stand out.
Firstly, as a mindless undead creature with no ranged attack capability, it is only dangerous if you specifically get into melee with it. It lacks pounce, so it lacks the surprise-kill potential that creatures like dire tigers possess. It has a truly horrible touch armor class, and pretty poor saving throws (+6 Fort, +6 Ref, +12 Will). It's only particularly dangerous if you insist on fighting it on its own terms (that is, it excels heavily at melee, but is overrun by pretty much any other tactic).
As a mindless undead, it can be bypassed (and thus overcome, yay XP) with a 1st level potion of hide from undead which grants no saving throw vs mindless undead. Likewise, a command undead 2nd level spell gains absolute control over the creature with no save (not only do you defeat it but it's now your fanatical minion). Because of its terrible saving throws and touch armor class it is easily destroyed with entangle spells and/or ranged attacks. Flight or any sort (or even levitate) renders it impotent. It has no skills and is easy to simply hide from and its Perception is horrible so you're likely to get an ambush on it. Any sort of pit trap is likely the end of the line for it. It lacks the damage reduction of a typical zombie so you can use invisibility + summon swarm to devour it with a swarm. A halt undead spell grants no saving throw to it and allows it to be destroyed at your leisure (have your martial or whomever take your highest critical-multiplier weapon, walk up, power attack + coup de grace).
Even less specific tactics work exceptionally well. Bombing it with alchemist fire works. Kiting it works. Any sort of terrain-adjusting effect pretty much ends it (it has difficulty with grease, is ruined by spike growth or similar spells. This is all without ever resorting to a 4th level spell-slot (it's a CR 7 monster).
Outdoors it is at a terrible disadvantage due to its limited range move movement. Indoors it has the problem of being a huge-sized creature (which means that it cannot function properly inside an area smaller than its 15 x 15 space without suffering a -4 to all attacks and AC, and can't really even fit in anything a medium sized character can (which means at best it could fit into a 10ft. wide hallway, but not through a 5 ft. doorway).
There is a lot more to the CR of a creature other than their numerical statistics. The "creating a monster" section of the bestiary is pretty clear that the chart is just a starting point. If you tried to go by the chart to determine the actual difficulty or validity of a creature's CR you'll find a lot of the bestiary seems wildly off, and the charts themselves very misleading. For example, a CR 5 creature on the chart usually has a DC 15 primary ability DC. But what that ability does means a lot. A basilisk can turn your entire party to stone, while another creature you might create has a DC 15 vs sickening a foe. Those have the same DC but wildly different effects.
I mean, one is basically a DC 15 or die and can affect the whole party. The other is minor inconvenience.
Likewise, the chart never takes into account special weaknesses, powers, spell-like, extraordinary, or supernatural abilities, and doesn't take into account additional equipment or even self-buffs. For example the pit fiend (CR 20) has an AC 38 (2 points higher than the average CR 20 creature by the monster creation standards). Then on top of that it has an at-will SLA that grants it a +4 bonus to AC, meaning the pit fiend has a real AC of 42 (because anytime you encounter the pit fiend it's going to be buffed with its at-will SLA).
Even the rules discuss this.
Creating a monster is part science and part art. While most monsters follow a general pattern of their overall power and abilities as related to their Challenge Rating (CR), there are many exceptions. Some monsters, for example, have significantly more hit points or a higher AC than the average for their CR, but make up for this advantage by being weak in other areas. Other monsters have significantly higher average damage, but have a lower attack bonus.
Hopefully this will clear up any confusion. My advise is don't be stupid and try to fight an enemy in their field. You generally do not want to rush into melee with monsters that are huge with 16 heads full of sharp teeth, so you deserve what you get if you do. :P
PS: If the OP is upset about templates or some such, perhaps instead of complaining about this particular creature he/she should be complaining about the fast-zombie template itself. It's pretty much the best variant zombie that their is, since it actually keeps zombies dangerous offensively at high levels (honestly nothing in the game with the staggered condition and no access to magic) is going to be a threat of any sort past the absolute lowest of levels.
It's not merely hydras that make good fast zombies. Most animals do too (fast zombie grizzly bears are good brutes, as are fast zombie dragons, and if you really want something scary a fast zombie kraken is made of terror). Some creatures are just good fast zombies.
You can make some pretty scary things with templates. A half-dragon hydra is pretty scary. It retains pounce, gains flight, becomes smarter, gains 2 claw attacks, immunity to a lot of stuff including possibly an element that disrupts its head-regrowth (such as acid), a breath weapon, a big natural armor boost, a massive boost to Strength (+4 to hit and damage with all attacks), Constitution (+3 Hp/HD), and so forth. It's only +2 CR (just like a pyro or cryo hydra).
The creature is more tdangerous than you think
"Special Qualities: A zombie loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. "
"Pounce (Ex)
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability)"
Its debatable. Depends on what your definition of "improve a melee attack" is.
Pounce does not make an attack more likely to hit, so it does not improve an attack.
Pounce does not make an attack do more damage, so it is not improving an attack.
All pounce does is increase the number of attacks you get from a charge, it doesn't actually improve any of those attacks. A charge allows you to attack at the end of it, but a charge itself is not an attack. Pounce improves the charge action itself, not the actual attacks.
It like you have Crappy Object A. You want a better, upgraded version of it. So I give you a second Crappy Object A. You now have more of Crappy Object A, but its still the same old crappy object. No improvement.
The creature is more tdangerous than you think
"Special Qualities: A zombie loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. "
"Pounce (Ex)
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability)"
The creature is less powerful than you think. :P
Pounce is a special attack.
Special Attacks pounce
Zombie template says.
Special Attacks: A zombie retains none of the base creature's special attacks.
A special quality that improves an attack can be seen on the Tyrannosaurus.
SQ powerful bite
Hydra zombies do not have pounce.
I honestly never could figure out why the variant Zombie templates don't raise CR or cost extra HD to animate.
I usually fluff it off though saying the bog standard zombies are born of Latent Necromantic magic. All others all caused by the caster specifically causing them to spawn.
On-Topic: I think CR: 7-9 is a good fit.
As Ashiel quoted:
Special Attacks: A zombie retains none of the base creature's special attacks.
Where there you go. I hadn't read the zombie template clearly enough to notice that. It specifically says zombies lose all special attacks, and pounce is a special attack.
Pounce does not improve an attack, its a special attack all on its own.
You might be right the zombie template says it loses it specials attacks. But the zombie also say it retains its extraordinay qualities like pounce.
If the hydra zombie loses pounce then CR 7-9 would be apropiated.
No it does not. It never says pounce. It says extradorinary special quailities that improve attacks are retained. As I said above, pounce does not actually improve any attack. And if if pounce was considered to improve an attack, it would still be lost. Special Qualities are retained, not Special Attacks. Pounce is specifically called out as a special attack, not a special quality. Special attacks and special qualities are listed separately in a creatures stat block for a reason - they are not the same thing.
It wouldn't matter if pounce actually gave +10 to hit, and tripled damage. As a special attack, it would always be lost.
You might be right the zombie template says it loses it specials attacks. But the zombie also say it retains its extraordinay qualities like pounce.
If the hydra zombie loses pounce then CR 7-9 would be apropiated.
No, it doesn't say it retains extraordinary qualities. It says it retains special qualities that improve its attacks. I gave you an example from the Tyrannosaurus statblock. Hydras have the following special qualities:
SQ hydra traits, regenerate head
Hydra Traits (Ex) A hydra can be killed by severing all of its heads or slaying its body. Any attack that is not an attempt to sever a head affects the body, including area attacks or attacks that cause piercing or bludgeoning damage. To sever a head, an opponent must make a sunder attempt with a slashing weapon targeting a head. A head is considered a separate weapon with hardness 0 and hit points equal to the hydra's HD. To sever a head, an opponent must inflict enough damage to reduce the head's hit points to 0 or less. Severing a head deals damage to the hydra's body equal to the hydra's current HD. A hydra can't attack with a severed head, but takes no other penalties.
Regenerate Head (Ex) When a hydra's head is destroyed, two heads regrow in 1d4 rounds. A hydra cannot have more than twice its original number of heads at any one time. To prevent new heads from growing, at least 5 points of acid or fire damage must be dealt to the stump (a touch attack to hit) before they appear. Acid or fire damage from area attacks can affect stumps and the body simultaneously. A hydra doesn't die from losing its heads until all are cut off and the stumps seared by acid or fire.
Neither of these special qualities improve the attacks of the hydra and thus are not retained by the zombie.
Pounce is listed as a special attack. Zombies specifically lose special attacks. In much the same way, a Xill loses its implant and paralysis special attacks and its planeswalk special quality, but keeps its Multiweapon Mastery special quality because it improves its melee or ranged attacks.
If the text in the zombie template refers to this then fast zombies can punce because pounces is (EX).
It doesn't refer to that. The zombie template retaining or losing attacks or qualities has 0% to do with them being Sp, Su, or Ex. It only matters that they are either special attacks or special qualities.
On a side note, IF a normal zombie could have pounce (which it can't because Pounce is a special attack and they lose special attacks) it could actually use it. Zombies can charge and pounce allows a full-attack on a charge, which means a pouncing zombie would be not so bad. Of course, it can't, so that's all in the air.
Read the rules you're arguing, please, or quote the ones you're concerned about at least.
Every single ability in the game is going to be 1 of 3 types:
Extraordinary (Ex)
Spell-like (Sp)
Supernatural (Su)
Special Attacks, and Special Qualities can be any one of those 3.
Look at the hydra. Where is pounce located in its stat block? Special Attacks, not Special Qualities. Pounce is a Extraordinary Special Attack. Pounce is not a Special Quality of any type. Have you got that?
Now, read the zombie template. Specifically these 2 areas:
Special Attacks: A zombie retains none of the base creature's special attack.
Special Qualities: A zombie loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks.
All Special Attacks are lost. It doesn't matter if they are Ex, Sp, or Su in nature. They are all automatically lost.
All Su and Sp Special Qualities are always lost. Any Ex special Quality is also lost, unless it improves an attack.
A zombie only retains some Ex Special Qualities. All other Special Qualities and all Special Attacks are lost. Pounce is a Special Attack. It is lost.
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Isn't the point that this one didn't have it, so the CR should'nt take it into consideration, and it didn't. The pounce argument sounds like a FAQ or other thread.
And OT... CR 7 or 8 seems fair enough to me, unless the party is melee-heavy or the encounter is in an enclosed kind of space. Then I'd give a bit of extra xp.
i wouldn't even consider it CR7. i would consider it CR5 if it still had pounce. because a 7th level party can mop the floor with it. it is so easy to kite this thing, and it will tend to die by simply the means of a flying ranged PC.
edit; now that i think about it, a level 5 archer with a potion of fly can solo this thing. so it probably isn't even that.
You are arguing things covered under Ad-Hoc CR adjustments. the Base CR for this thing should be CR 7. meaning in a standard encounter with this thing it is CR 7. If your players are willing to use an item to be this thing then so be it. They are sacrificing a limited resource for an easier fight.
That doesn't mean everyone who fights this thing will have those resources.
You are arguing things covered under Ad-Hoc CR adjustments. the Base CR for this thing should be CR 7. meaning in a standard encounter with this thing it is CR 7. If your players are willing to use an item to be this thing then so be it. They are sacrificing a limited resource for an easier fight.
That doesn't mean everyone who fights this thing will have those resources.
a potion of fly is quite affordable at 5th level. maybe not as easily to a starting character's WBL, but it is affordable based on parties whom have adventured longer and likely have the excess funds to devote to one.
you don't need it for every encounter, but it makes killing fast zombie hydras a whole lot easier when you can fly backwards and shoot.
the only way to have this monster be truly challenging at all is if you put it indoors inside the center of a 25 foot by 25 foot square room with an exit designed for kobolds that requires medium PCs to squeeze and a crapton of rubble to create difficult terrain.
All I am pointing out is it isn't something everyone might be willing to buy if it is even available.
Either way this falls into a Tactical Choices. This game has near Tactical Infinity which means you have to account for that.
In most environs this would be a CR 7-8. In a enclosed Space it becomes 8-9. In open spaces it falls to around 3-5.
A potion of hide from undead is 50 gp. It is in fact less than a mundane longbow. A scroll of command undead is 150 gp and crushes this creature. Even by 4th level, having access to such things is trivial. Just tossing that out there.
On a side note, scrolls of command undead are exceptionally amazing for dealing with mindless undead (it has no saving throw in this case and they obey you absolutely). Always a good item to keep on hand for mindless undead bruisers.
Isn't there a way to get Command Undead as an SLA around Level 3...