So, I've seen some threads on this forum where Charisma is usually viewed as a dump stat most of the time. And really, it kind of makes sense. Most ability scores seem to do things outside of class features and skills. Strength as the general melee stat, dex with initiative, ranged attacks, and reflex saves, con with HP and fortitude saves, intelligence increasing skill points, and wisdom boosting will saves.
My idea is basically that Charisma could function as an alternative to Wisdom for boosting the will save. Thematically, I think it makes sense; people with strong sense of themselves often aren't cowed by dominating magic and all that. I don't think its that unbalanced either. It might also make classes that might dump Charisma because they don't want their will save to be awful not do so, because the character concept calls for a genuinely scary fighter or a deceitful barbarian ("no, of course I'm not angry...") instead of perhaps those guys being more perceptive, or whatever the crap Wisdom means.
Anyway, yeah. Thoughts?
It might work, or it might end up just turning every fighter into someone with no wisdom score and a perception skill focus....
I actually believe that this one of the few things 4.0 might have done right. Allowing you to choose between two stats for each of your saves.
Sure, there is room for exploit, but isn't there always?
On the other hand, WIS doesn't have that many skills as CHA, so taking away WILL from WIS would leave this stat with quite few schticks...
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I like the idea of dividing will into two saves: intuition and willpower.
Intuition is based on wisdom and is rolled against illusions and stuff.
Willpower is based on charisma and is rolled against attacks on the mind and soul.
Actually, I like the idea of splitting WISDOM(!) into INTUITION/AWARENESS and WILLPOWER/RESOLVE.
(But that's probably not gonna happen (except in my d20-system))
But back to your point,
I think Illusions would also work with INT, instead of WIS.
Bottom line, there should be one Save for each Ability (D&D Next style - and another thing from my d20-system)
If you change Willpower to Charisma (an idea I like) you can make Iniciative go to Wisdom. Dexterity is still a good atribute with many utilities, and you can justify the change; wisdom is in part intuition, and is easy to relate Iniciative and intuition.
Cha can be a dump stat for certain builds - but so can every other stat (except con), so I don't see the problem. But I do miss the feat...
I think a feat that only CHANGES your stat is a bit underpowered, except maybe when it changes to another type of stat (Will save to physical stat or Fort/Ref to mental stat)
I don't know but I kinda like the "either instead or in addition - your choice" variant.
(Would have wished that for "Intimidating Prowess")
One major issue with linking Cha to will saves is that gives paladins crazy will save bonuses... since they would get to add their Cha mod to Will twice.
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As long as there are RPGs, there will be dump-statting.
At least let's make it so that everyone has different dump stats. That way, everyone can fail in a myriad of beautiful ways. :)
These are some alternate rules for saving throws I've used in the past:
Fortitude save uses the sum of your strength and constitution modifier, reflex save the sum of your dexterity and intelligene modifier, and will save the sum of your wisdom and charisma modifier. You no longer gain a +2 bonus to "strong" saves at the 1st level (except Monks, which receive this as a class feature).
This makes your saves a little more dependent on attributes and a little less dependent on class. For most 20-point-buy characters, your overall saving throws should just be redistributed and the totals should be about the same, but if you push the point buy higher or lower you'll get some variation.
Biggest problem you'll find with any scheme that makes charisma important is that the Monk is basically balanced on the presumption that you're dumping it without serious reprocussions. If no one is playing monk, that shouldn't be a serious issue.
Cha can be a dump stat for certain builds - but so can every other stat (except con), so I don't see the problem. But I do miss the feat...
Don't get it twisted. Con is a dumpstat for some builds too.
I'd turn this idea on its head. Put all offensive uses foe Wisdom on Charisma (Druid/cleric spellcasting) and leave wisdom as the defensive stat. Charisma/Wisdom makes as nearly as good and conceptually tidy a pairing as Strength/Constitution.
So, I've seen some threads on this forum where Charisma is usually viewed as a dump stat most of the time. And really, it kind of makes sense. Most ability scores seem to do things outside of class features and skills. Strength as the general melee stat, dex with initiative, ranged attacks, and reflex saves, con with HP and fortitude saves, intelligence increasing skill points, and wisdom boosting will saves.
My idea is basically that Charisma could function as an alternative to Wisdom for boosting the will save. Thematically, I think it makes sense; people with strong sense of themselves often aren't cowed by dominating magic and all that. I don't think its that unbalanced either. It might also make classes that might dump Charisma because they don't want their will save to be awful not do so, because the character concept calls for a genuinely scary fighter or a deceitful barbarian ("no, of course I'm not angry...") instead of perhaps those guys being more perceptive, or whatever the crap Wisdom means.
Anyway, yeah. Thoughts?
If you're going to do this, I'd recommend going the whole way. Make Strength/Constitution for Fortitude, Dexterity/Intelligence for Reflex, and Wisdom/Charisma for Will, and just let the highest of each apply as appropriate.
You would see more diverse characters because in some cases players may feel they can relax a bit on some in exchange for others since it won't mean their saves are screaming "you is gonna die dood" at them.
Or you simply use two stats + feat/special bonuses and NO level based advancement.
However, this might make low-level saves rather powerful and later levels rather difficult...
But I sort-of agree with you.
At least most (or even all) REF-saves made because you where attacked in some way (trap, fireball, etc) could or should be dealt by a simply attack/AC roll.
Grabbing the edge of the cliff as a last resort, however, is a good example for a true REF-save.
Con a dump stat? - how some thng of Undead wannabe - or just a short lived char?
Or you simply use two stats + feat/special bonuses and NO level based advancement.
However, this might make low-level saves rather powerful and later levels rather difficult...
Actually, most characters will be about the same at the 1st level. Remember that most characters will have low or even negative modifiers in str, int, or cha which will mitigate their gains, and most classes gain between 2-4 points of saving throw progression at the first level. Some characters will be higher (at the 20-point-buy level, I find it's rarely by a factor of more than 2 or 3 points) but some will be lower.
As I mentioned earlier, this works quite well if you remove the normal +2's to strong saves at the 1st level and just have progression proceed normally from there.
People with a "strong sense of themselves" also tend to have nice fragile, tender egos, which makes them perfect targets for certain spells that target the Will. *evil laughter*.
One thing I like about Pathfinder, is that there is no real dump stat; each attribute has importance.
And no, I wouldn't let you play a sorcerer with excellent Will saves by letting you switch which stat supports such. Every hero should have a flaw or two.
You could go the other way, like the star wars d20 saga edition, and get rid of ac altogether and make all attacks reflex saves. It makes sense, anytime someone tries to attack you, you instinctually move out of the way. I think heavier armors grants bonuses to fortitude saves as well/in lieu of, for characters that just take the brunt directly.
As to the OP, this is one of the very few things 4e got right. Allowing two stats to matter for save purposes takes a big stress off the situation. The fact is that if you wanted to be more realistic, you should probably do the average of each (str/con to fort, dex/int to ref, wis/cha to will) rather than best of.
In my regular group, we don't use diplomacy, my friends call it the "I don't want to roll play" skill. So charisma becomes even more of a dump stat.
Personally, I think the easiest way to make charisma more important is in the hands of the dm. A high charisma character should have a real chance at talking his or her way out of fights. And still get some experience, since the challenge was beaten, just not in the conventional way of rpgs, but in the conventional way of the world. And I would give the high charisma character extra experience.
That same character should have options from npcs that other pcs just don't get: Better help options, more cash, better prices, items they won't normally part with, etc.
And like in real life don't let them abuse it: the party face asks for more gold, the employer says "look sugar, I like you, here is an extra -- gold for you, but I can't pay everyone more". The shopkeeper would do the same "I can give you an extra -- percent for your stuff (or discount on purchases), but I have a shop to run, I can't give you extra for all your team stuff, I know you don't wear plate armor" (if sorcerer or bard, for example). Go an extra step, the king that hires them grants the party face an extra scroll that they can use, but its really only useful for him or her, not the whole party.
If all you want is more numbers, then chances are only specific classes will make charisma viable for anything, unless your DM does something similar to what my group does.
Another option is to make some of the charisma skills closer to charm/enchantment spells. In real life, people can talk their way in or out of almost anything. It requires some skill and some charisma (from a RL perspective). It may not last as long as a spell, but I think it should work somewhat like this.
One thing I like about Pathfinder, is that there is no real dump stat; each attribute has importance.
This is true for every stat except charisma. While there are many classes that have good use for it, there are many others that simply do not. The minor inconvenience of penalties to skills you will almost never use (someone else in the party will be doing the talking most of the time) is a no-brainer trade.
Con a dump stat? - how some thng of Undead wannabe - or just a short lived char?
Paladin. Lay on Hands and Divine Grace meant Con was a non-issue. Seriously, it was -2 HP per level, but Lay on Hands + a feat gives 1d6+2 per 2 levels of healing. You do the math.
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These are some alternate rules for saving throws I've used in the past:
Fortitude save uses the sum of your strength and constitution modifier, reflex save the sum of your dexterity and intelligene modifier, and will save the sum of your wisdom and charisma modifier. You no longer gain a +2 bonus to "strong" saves at the 1st level (except Monks, which receive this as a class feature).
This makes your saves a little more dependent on attributes and a little less dependent on class. For most 20-point-buy characters, your overall saving throws should just be redistributed and the totals should be about the same, but if you push the point buy higher or lower you'll get some variation.
I really like the general idea of this. It might really take away some "Big Six" reliance--for once we could all use cloaks that weren't cloaks of resistance! I'd probably even leave the strong saves in as they are, again to reduce gear reliance (I might make items that provide bonuses to saving throws more expensive, so people don't throw the cheap CoRs over their improved save and turn it into an arms race).
It could discourage extreme dumpstatting too. Although it could be a challenge if you want a certain build and find you need to dump a stat that then in turn effectively actually lowers your saving throw when in the old system it would have been fine (but that's also why I wouldn't get rid of the strong base at 1st level).
Biggest problem you'll find with any scheme that makes charisma important is that the Monk is basically balanced on the presumption that you're dumping it without serious reprocussions. If no one is playing monk, that shouldn't be a serious issue.
Given monks have good base saves anyway, as well as resistances to mind affecting spells and eventually spell resistance, I don't even think it'd be that much of a concern.
Or if you're going with the OP's suggestion that Cha is the source of Will saves, you could make it a monk class feature that they can still use their Wis instead.
Con a dump stat? - how some thng of Undead wannabe - or just a short lived char?Paladin. Lay on Hands and Divine Grace meant Con was a non-issue. Seriously, it was -2 HP per level, but Lay on Hands + a feat gives 1d6+2 per 2 levels of healing. You do the math.
Hmmm... I'd rather have a lot of hit points to begin with than having to get them back via cure during combat.
One thing I like about Pathfinder, is that there is no real dump stat; each attribute has importance.This is true for every stat except charisma. While there are many classes that have good use for it, there are many others that simply do not. The minor inconvenience of penalties to skills you will almost never use (someone else in the party will be doing the talking most of the time) is a no-brainer trade.
But if you are the "someone else" yourself, dumping charisma would be a bad decision. And I would rather try and talk my way out of a bad situation myself than rely on someone else's CHA score.
So yes, each attribute has importance.
Hmmm... I'd rather have a lot of hit points to begin with than having to get them back via cure during combat.Con a dump stat? - how some thng of Undead wannabe - or just a short lived char?Paladin. Lay on Hands and Divine Grace meant Con was a non-issue. Seriously, it was -2 HP per level, but Lay on Hands + a feat gives 1d6+2 per 2 levels of healing. You do the math.
I'll break it down like this.
+1 Charisma means that you get 1 extra use of Lay on Hands per day.
-2 Constitution means you get 2 less HP per level.
At 10th level said Paladin recovers an average of 27.5 hit points. Just healing once results in effectively having more hit points. By 20th level, a -2 Con means 40 hit points less than you would have had, but a single use of Lay on Hands recovers 80 hit points.
If you're fighting things that are going to one-shot you from full Hp to dead, you probably shouldn't be fighting that thing anyway.
At 10th level said Paladin recovers an average of 27.5 hit points. Just healing once results in effectively having more hit points. By 20th level, a -2 Con means 40 hit points less than you would have had, but a single use of Lay on Hands recovers 80 hit points.
Yes, but one round of healing means one round of attacks less against the opponent, one more round that the monster can deal damage to you. If, at 10th level, the paladin sustains more than 7.5 hp damage, it's a net loss.
Don't get me wrong, it's nice to be able to heal as much as possible, but I have experienced it in a lot of encounters that, as a front row fighter, it is better to start with a lot of hit points than to have significantly less and rely on healing, be it from your allies or your own powers.
At 10th level said Paladin recovers an average of 27.5 hit points. Just healing once results in effectively having more hit points. By 20th level, a -2 Con means 40 hit points less than you would have had, but a single use of Lay on Hands recovers 80 hit points.
Yes, but one round of healing means one round of attacks less against the opponent, one more round that the monster can deal damage to you. If, at 10th level, the paladin sustains more than 7.5 hp damage, it's a net loss.
Don't get me wrong, it's nice to be able to heal as much as possible, but I have experienced it in a lot of encounters that, as a front row fighter, it is better to start with a lot of hit points than to have significantly less and rely on healing, be it from your allies or your own powers.
Paladins self-heal as a swift action. A Paladin can beat the snot out of an opponent in melee during a full-attack and heal himself via lay on hands in the same round.
I have used Charisma as the base for a fourth "save" that one rolls a number of times per day equal to their level(one re-roll allowed), but if that save fails, bad things happen. It worked well during the one playtest, but I haven't playtested it again in quite some time.
Or if you use hero points, you could simply use CHA as a modifier to the maximum number of hero points a character can possess (was done in another game I can't remember, I think True20)
Cha has so many good things going for it in PF. Diplomacy, rolled nearly as often as Perception in my experience. Use Magic Device, disguises, charm person spells, channeling, Paladin saving throws...
Also, take a look at the core classes. Three of them (Paladin, Bard, Sorcerer) use Charisma to generate spells and get other bonuses. Ties with Wisdom, and the Cleric uses Cha for channeling anyway. Compare to poor Intelligence, which has the Wizard alone.
Outside the Core, poor Wisdom only gets one additional Base class, where Charisma gets two.
Charisma's doing just fine, and doesn't need to be hogging a saving throw, IMO. This reminds me of the argument that Weapon Finesse should come pre-packed in certain classes, or that Dex should add to damage rolls on a finessing weapon. Dex has plenty going for it.
Seems like this thread was started by somebody who didn't play a lot of 2nd Edition, when Charisma was the go-to dump stat for nearly every character.
Paladins self-heal as a swift action. A Paladin can beat the snot out of an opponent in melee during a full-attack and heal himself via lay on hands in the same round.(more stuff)(stuff)
Oh. *consults PRD*
Yes.I honestly didn't know that, and the paladin in my group certainly doesn't, either. Thanks, I learned something today!