Someone mentioned it in passing and I thought it might be a cool concept until I started delving a bit deeper. From all I can tell the Eidolon's physical stats actually REPLACE your own, in which case I would be taking a drop in Str, Dex, and Con no matter what I chose.
I'm assuming what they mean by this is that it is an early level drop in efficiency but a higher level increase? So I can get stuff like Improved Natural Armor and Ability Increase (which WOULD bump my Str back up to normal) to make me more of a powerhouse over time?
Because I'm a level 3 Monk (no archetype but Qinggong, sadly, or I'd be more content) currently and the more I play the less I want to be a Monk after around level 4 or 5. Level up should be coming in the next session so I'm trying to plan ahead a bit.
So I guess a few more focused questions, you can ignore the above really, I'm still working out this thought process:
1.) Is it worth it? Would it overall increase my effectiveness as an Unarmed character, or would it be roughly equivalent to continuing on as a pure Monk, or some other multiclass like unarmed Fighter instead?
2.) How does Flurry of Blows and the extra attacks from Ki Points interact with the Eidolon's extra attacks?
3.) If it IS worth it, would I be better off waiting until level 5 to multiclass, taking level 4 as a Monk, and gaining the Ki Pool and most likely Scorching Ray, or would it be better to just shunt off into Synthesist when I hit level 4?
If you did not plan to become a Synthesist Summoner from the start I would advise against it. Monks are a tough class to make effective, taking good system mastery as many of the things that actually make Monks effective are not what you would expect given the flavor of the Monk. If you want to change classes I would either talk to your GM about a whole new character or if not maybe put levels in Fighter and pick one of the unarmed Fighter Archetypes as they can pretty easily be made to be great unarmed combatants.
To answer question #2, unless you take the Feral Combat Training feat for your natural attacks, they don't combine with Flurry. FCT basically designates a single natural attack as having the 'monk' special ability and it can also be modified by any feat/ability that requires IUS as a prereq. So if you take 'Claws' as your natural attack and take Feral Combat Training (Claws), then your claw attacks will count as a Monk weapon, used as normal iterative attacks and they could also be used to deliver abilities such as Stunning Fist.
Thanks. =)
And that last bit is noted.
If you did not plan to become a Synthesist Summoner from the start I would advise against it. Monks are a tough class to make effective, taking good system mastery as many of the things that actually make Monks effective are not what you would expect given the flavor of the Monk. If you want to change classes I would either talk to your GM about a whole new character or if not maybe put levels in Fighter and pick one of the unarmed Fighter Archetypes as they can pretty easily be made to be great unarmed combatants.
So I've learned =/
It's not that I've been doing very poorly with the class really, it's just that I don't really fill a niche in the party as well as I'd like. We're mostly casters, so me and the Rogue are basically what we've got for melee fighters until the Druid kicks into gear. I wanted something that would give me a bit of an edge since I'm basically the de facto "Fighter" of the group, and this seemed like a good way to do it, especially since I've not progressed very far yet.
My GM won't let me make a new char unless I die (in which case I've got a few ideas hammered out for a whole new character anyway), so that;s out. I just really need a modification that would rectify a problem I see in the future of me being the sole close combat specialist and not being nearly good enough at it.
What kind of stats/focus does a Synthesist need to be effective? Who knows, I may have inadvertently set myself up for it.
Also, any other tips would be greatly appreciated, as far as other multiclass options or just Qinggong abilities that you think would be highly useful.
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Id personally say dont bother with the summoner class for this character. The Synthesist is truly effective if u go all 20 levels in2 it or u just take a dip in monk. The replacing of all ur physical stats with the pet makes it were u cna focus on all the mental stats like wis which would b more ac for u. Sadly though to make the synthesist really shine u need all the evolution points u can get to really maximize ur ac get all immunities and some other nice tid bits like fast healing 5.
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The following is a level 20 build for summoner that can literally fight butt naked with out any items and makes a great tank and can dish its share of damage.
Race: Half Elf
Class: Summoner (Synthesist Archetype)
Stats: Str = 10
Dex = 10
Con = 17 with racial modifier
Int = 13
Wis = 14
Cha = 14
when leveling add 3 to con and 2 to cha
take the Half Elf Favored Class Option for Summoner
Eidolon's base form Aquatic
Powers obtained via Eidolon = -Fast Healing x5
-Natural Armor x5
-Limbs x3
-Claws x3
-All 5 immunities
Feats = -Extra Evolution x5
-Toughness
-Dodge
-Combat Expertise
-Combat Reflexes
-Resilient Eidolon
One of the most powerful features of the Synthesist is the replacement of their physical stats by the eidolon's. Unless your stats are something to the tune of STR 7, DEX 7, CON 10 to 12 then you are missing out on that feature. You might be able to build a Monk/Synthesist from the start that wouldn't be too bad, but really you would be better off ditching the Monk part and going all Synthesist like Psion suggested as the Monk portions wouldn't contribute as much as the Synthesist.
If your physical stats are not very good you might benefit from the Synthesist, but otherwise it's probably not going to be a net gain in effectiveness. Also unless you have a Charisma of 11 or more you won't be able to cast spells as Charisma is the Summoner casting attribute.
Unfortunately it sounds like you find yourself in one of the worst possible situations a Monk can be in, you are the melee portion of your group. Monks are not full martial characters (though their description makes them out to be) and they have to trade off Attack for Defense and vice versa. Going some Fighter might help, or if you stay all Monk look for some of the threads about the Monk class here on the forums so you can learn about some of their weaknesses and try to cover them as best you can.
Yeah. Thanks for the advice though guys.
I'm looking into going Unarmed Fighter from Level 5 on now instead. I was thinking Paladin might be interesting but I kinda hit a wall there since just about everything relies on a decent Cha score (which a 7 is not).
I really want to focus more on Offense than Defense, with a decent bit of mobility, but still be able to hold my own in actual damage dealing. I guess I got me some more reading to do.
Thanks for the help though, I'll look more into other possible classes.
Hm. How well would Ranger work?
I'd think that the only problem with that might be that Unarmed Strikes could count as either Two Weapon or Natural Weapon stuff, or neither for the combat style. I'll read more into it.
I was looking at that earlier too, but it just didn't click with me for some reason. We've got spellcasters coming out of our ears (Bard, Cleric, Druid, and Sorcerer, in a 6 man party), and I wanted to give us a solid direct combat guy.
Edit: Actually, as I look at it, the Shapeshifter archetype for Ranger might be great.
Personally I'd recommend a Monk/Druid. The co-dependance on WIS synergizes with the Monk really well, especially if you're building a melee druid who focuses on shapchange. Plus having real spellcasting is a big plus, even if it's not your thing.
Keep in mind the alignment restriction for monk means you can't go back to monk. So I'd leave the class after level 4(5th lvl) so you get another 'hard' BAB, an AC bump, more saves, Ki Pool & Slow Fall. A lot of cool things to get at 4th level.
You'll have to roleplay your rejection of your monk ways and find your way into a more neutral lifestyle during that level before you go Druid. Since it sounds like you have a druid in your party, learn from them. Then take Feral Combat training if you have style feats. If not, you can just take Monastic Legacy to keep doing Monk-ish things; if you still want to.
Personally I'd recommend a Monk/Druid. The co-dependance on WIS synergizes with the Monk really well, especially if you're building a melee druid. Plus having real spellcasting is a big plus.
Keep in mind the alignment restriction for monk means you can't go back to monk. So I'd leave the class after level 4(5th lvl) so you get another 'hard' BAB, an AC bump, more saves, Ki Pool & Slow Fall. A lot of cool things to get at 4th level.
You'll have to roleplay your rejection of your monk ways and find your way into a more neutral lifestyle during that level before you go Druid. Then take Feral Combat training if you have style feats. If not, you can just take Monastic Legacy to keep doing Monk-ish things; if you still want to.
Does "any Neutral" include Lawful Neutral?
Because if so I'll have no conflict of alignment.
Otherwise, thankee. And I was already looking at Monastic Legacy as my 5th Level Feat if I multiclassed anyway. Looked good.
So a little more thoughtfulness into this here then.
So I would shift to Monk 4/Druid 1 at Level 5.
Taking the Menhir Savant archetype because it replaces class features I wasn't excited about and something about being able to sense undead appeals to me.
Animal Companion would likely be a Big Cat, unless someone knows of a better option for a melee focused character or a Domain that facilitates Shapeshifting to gain combat bonuses.
Feats:
Planar Wild Shape
Shaping Focus
Dragon Ferocity
Monastic Legacy
I'm thinking I will take Monastic Legacy first, then either Shaping Focus or Dragon Ferocity, depending on which would give me a better bonus (shapeshifting into a creature or having a flat damage increase basically), with Planar Wildshape there because it sounds cool. I suppose if I wanted to stretch it Feats-wise I could take a level of Unarmed Fighter at 5 instead, getting Monastic Legacy and Dragon Ferocity immediately, and then swapping to Druid at 6 instead, but I'm not sure if that's a smart option or not.
Sound like a plan?
First question: Do you have a bard in the party?
Do you have dedicated buffers? I mean people throwing down prayer, heroism, and GMF on you and GMW on the rogue.
If you don't I would suggest you multiclass into Unarmed Fighter asap. Don't do druid, stacking 2 3/4 BAB is just going to kill your damage way more than gaining wild shape at level 8 is going to make up for your character.
We have both a Bard and a Cleric who likes to cast Bless and such. He also knows Boiling Blood, which is nice since I'm a Half-Orc.
I'll copy/paste here from what I was sending to my GM though about what my options may or may not be.
Aaaanyway, I've been looking over some things this week. I've decided that most of the Monk's base abilities are less than desirable (after about level 5 at most, bar a few REALLY late game things), even with the Qinggong archetype allowing me to trade some of them out for slightly better things. So I was thinking of multiclassing after level 4, I just dunno what class.1.) Unarmed Fighter gives me more to-hit and damage, as well as extra Style feats.
2.) I can take the Shapeshifter Ranger class, which requires me to take the Natural Attack combat style. Problem is I'm not sure if that applies to a Monk's unarmed attacks (it SAYS they're natural and manufactured attacks depending on the Monk page). If not, this class becomes useless.
3.) Either Sorcerer (Empyreal bloodline lets me cast off of Wis instead of Cha, which is cool) for more magic Monk-y stuff and less kung fu or Druid (which grants me some nice wildshapes, but we already have a Druid and I frankly hate the idea since it seems boring.)
4.) Fist of the Forest, problem being it's from D&D, not technically Pathfinder and precludes me from living like a civilized being if we ever happen to make it to a town, which could be an issue. But if it never became an issue, it's basically a free +2 to AC, more HP, an Unarmed focused version of the Barbarian's rage ability, free extra damage, magic unarmed strikes, the Uncanny Dodge feat, and the ability to track by scent at the cost of only gaining 2 skills a level for 3 levels straight, not being able to buy food, and not being able to sleep inside.
And/or some combination thereof. I was thinking Synthesist Summoner for a while but apparently your Eidolon suit of armor replaces your physical stats with its own, in which case it would actually drop mine by a good chunk.
Basically, I like you guy's advice from a certain perspective, but not from how I want to play the character point of view. I want his focus to still be on unarmed/sometimes armed combat, not on shapeshifting completely out of said form and such.
Sorry if I seem a little flip/floppy, I run through ideas, get enthusiastic with them, and then change my mind pretty quick a lot of the time.
My advice is to swap out slow fall for barkskin via Qinggong archetype.
Grab unarmed fighter and stick with it for at least 5 levels. Get weapon focus (if you haven't), weapon specialization, monastic legacy, dragon style and dragon ferocity. Too bad you are not MoMS.
This will up your damage quite a bit and you also get an AC bump from barkskin.
*pops forehead*
I forgot about Barkskin as an option actually, I'd been planning on getting Scorching Ray from the beginning but I got a nice bow recently and realized that would fill my ranged deficiency quite nicely.
I already have Dragon Style, and was planning on getting Dragon Ferocity as my UF bonus Feat if I went that route, with Monastic Legacy as my 5th level Feat I'd normally get. Which leaves Weapon Focus (which I'd be able to snag at UF 2?) and then Weapon Specialization at 3.
Now to clarify, Unarmed Fighter still gets the Feat at every even level, just not the first level Bonus Feat?
Too bad you are not MoMS.
I've said this to myself pretty frequently ever since I figured out what all the Style Feats did (which was a coupe of levels too late =/).
Ah, c'est la vie. Whatever, this'd make me able to make the best of that anyway. Dragon Style and Flurry together ain't too shabby.
Edit: Heh, my GM got back to me with kind of an interesting reply.
He said I wouldn't have been able to multiclass Druid anyway, since by his logic Nesteruk (our Druid) wouldn't be able to teach me anything for fear of losing his Druid abilities or some such.
Not sure how rules-worthy that is but I thought it was a pretty good justification for "We already got a Druid ya knob."
If you want to up DPR getting weapon focus first is more important than monastic legacy. Because even if you get it at level 5 it does nothing for you. It is half of other class levels counts as monk levels. Half of 1 is 0 in PF.You can't get weapon specialization until level 4 of fighter,...
I thought about that as I was shutting my computer off last night. Though I thought it was a minimum of 1.
I was thinking of these for Feats (not a comprehensive list):
Weapon Focus
Dragon Ferocity
Power Attack (maybe)
Ironhide (I'm a Half-Orc)
Dragon Roar (not a priority)
Aaaaaand, that's what I got so far.
Ask your DM if you can simply drop the free bite evolution on the Quadraped Eidolon ... the only natural attacks you want are either claws or hooves (claws have rend, which is really good ... but you have to take it with extra sets of arms, whereas hooves are taken with legs which give you extra speed). Taking two extra feats to use your bite with your flurry isn't worth it ... so the bite just takes up one of the Eidolons max natural attacks for nothing.
He may actually allow that, and I think it would give an Evolution Point back, no?
I'll tuck that in my back pocket as one of the options.
Stick monk out until at least 4. Your Ki pool is a LOT of fun. You want offense? How about the ability to get a free extra attack (that stacks with haste no less) as a swift action? At level 5 (when your party has access to haste) you'll be making 4 attacks a round, all at your highest BAB.
Is your DM willing to let you slap an archetype on your monk to help your enjoyment? Both Flowing Monk and Tetori are INCREDIBLY fun. Flowing focuses on tripping and being a douchey untouchable mofo. Tetori can grapple and lock down nearly any enemy within a single round.
Monks are EXTREMELY magic item dependent. Which means they don't start coming into their own until you can get Monk Robes (13,000g). Damage is *not* hard to do as a monk. People always whine that monks get nothing for damage, but they're incredibly versatile. Quiggong will also start kicking in at level 4 for free goodies (hellloooo Barkskin).
Also: get Dragon Ferocity + Power Attack. You will be adding 1.5x Str to all your UAS. Presuming level 4, 18 str, power attack = 1d8+9.. 4 times a round.
Stick it out another level or 2, and talk to your DM about switching up archetype/feats. The trick to talking to a DM is saying "Im unhappy with my mechanics but I would really like to stick with this character." If your DM says tough nuts, then he's not a great DM.
Stick monk out until at least 4. Your Ki pool is a LOT of fun. You want offense? How about the ability to get a free extra attack (that stacks with haste no less) as a swift action? At level 5 (when your party has access to haste) you'll be making 4 attacks a round, all at your highest BAB.
Is your DM willing to let you slap an archetype on your monk to help your enjoyment? Both Flowing Monk and Tetori are INCREDIBLY fun. Flowing focuses on tripping and being a douchey untouchable mofo. Tetori can grapple and lock down nearly any enemy within a single round.
Monks are EXTREMELY magic item dependent. Which means they don't start coming into their own until you can get Monk Robes (13,000g). Damage is *not* hard to do as a monk. People always whine that monks get nothing for damage, but they're incredibly versatile. Quiggong will also start kicking in at level 4 for free goodies (hellloooo Barkskin).
Also: get Dragon Ferocity + Power Attack. You will be adding 1.5x Str to all your UAS. Presuming level 4, 18 str, power attack = 1d8+9.. 4 times a round.
Stick it out another level or 2, and talk to your DM about switching up archetype/feats. The trick to talking to a DM is saying "Im unhappy with my mechanics but I would really like to stick with this character." If your DM says tough nuts, then he's not a great DM.
Oh I'm definitely sticking it out 'til 4. Playing now actually.
And it's not that I'm unhappy with my mechanics, it's that I'm unhappy with how effective I'm supposedly supposed to be as the main melee guy, so I need more efficiency.
Dragon Roar is pretty craptastic. If you want some range capabilities it is better to just grab Deadly Aim and/or Rapid Shot.
Definitely get Power Attack because with near full BAB and Inspire Courage it should be a pure DPR increase.
Level 5: Weapon Focus, Dragon Ferocity
Level 6: Power Attack
Level 7: Monastic Legacy
Level 8: Weapon Specialization
Level 9: Big Game Hunter
All solid choices, but I don't have Varisia Affinity, so BGH is out.
And Dragon Roar was mostly for flavor. I like the idea of being able to go "Rawr supersonic punch" or something.
Dragon Roar is pretty craptastic. If you want some range capabilities it is better to just grab Deadly Aim and/or Rapid Shot.
Definitely get Power Attack because with near full BAB and Inspire Courage it should be a pure DPR increase.
Level 5: Weapon Focus, Dragon Ferocity
Level 6: Power Attack
Level 7: Monastic Legacy
Level 8: Weapon Specialization
Level 9: Big Game Hunter
All solid choices, but I don't have Varisia Affinity, so BGH is out.
And Dragon Roar was mostly for flavor. I like the idea of being able to go "Rawr supersonic punch" or something.
"Rawr supersonic punch" = HADOKEN?
"Rawr supersonic punch" = HADOKEN?
My line of thinking was more along the lines of when a kung fu master punches and there's a whipcrack sound and a sonic boom flies out.
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A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.Note the bolded section.So? The Feral Combat Training feat simply says :
"Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature."Now the FAQ tries to make us believe that means the natural weapons are considered monk weapons ... but meh, FAQ ... it's not what the feat says. We all know Paizo hates monks while answering FAQs even more than when writing rules :)
It doesn't say you can use the selected natural weapon in addition to your flurry of blows class feature, but with it. And that would mean using the natural weapon to make a flurry of blows.
Got my 4th level as Monk at the end of today's session, and we also picked up a Barbarian at the same-ish time.
Welp. Looks like I'm not required to be the primary damage dealer any more. I'd still like to be a combatant but maybe I can find something that gives a little more buffing (self or otherwise) power rather than raw damage, or a class with great passives.
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It doesn't say you can use the selected natural weapon in addition to your flurry of blows class feature, but with it.Using secondary attacks is a standard part of a full attack action which flurry of blows is ... only the language denying it in the standard description removes the ability to use natural secondary attacks, and the feat's language overrides that.
If you can prove that to your GM, more power to you, but I severely doubt that's the intention of the feat.
Got my 4th level as Monk at the end of today's session, and we also picked up a Barbarian at the same-ish time.
Welp. Looks like I'm not required to be the primary damage dealer any more. I'd still like to be a combatant but maybe I can find something that gives a little more buffing (self or otherwise) power rather than raw damage, or a class with great passives.
Inquisitor is a ton of fun and is still physical stat + wisdom based.
Inquisitor is a ton of fun and is still physical stat + wisdom based.
That's one of the ones I'm looking at.
Ragechemist (Alchemist archetype) also looks like it might be cool.
Eh. I'll look over both of those options in-depth and decide whether they would be more fun and useful than tons o' Feats.
My line of thinking was more along the lines of when a kung fu master punches and there's a whipcrack sound and a sonic boom flies out.
"Rawr supersonic punch" = HADOKEN?
Thanks for the clarification Rynjin, good luck in building the character. ... In closing SONIC BOOM (Guile).