
Maerimydra |

I want to build a backup character for the ongoing Carrion Crown campaing I'm playing in, in case my Alchemist doesn't make it to the end. Since we have no "party face" and plenty of spellcasters, a warrior-type, "leader of men" like Griffith would be a great addition. Should I go for Fighter/Bard, Cavalier, Duelist? I would like him to be able to do more than just "swinging is sword around".
Hardcover books only (CRB, APG, ARG, UC, UM).
15 points.
Level 5 to 15.

TarkXT |

Cavalier.
Take leadership and get a barbarian cohort.
Don't forget the part where you are tortured and given god like power in exchange for messing up the whole world while doing terrible terrible things to your cohort and his main squeeze.
Then lead your new demon army after being reborn in the body of your cohorts son whom you corrupted with your dark essence to bring an age of light to Ustalav.

Maerimydra |

I was thinking maybe 6 level of Fighter to get Whirling Attack + Lunge then multiclassing as a Cavalier or Bard.
Level 1 - Combat Reflexes, Dodge(F), Mobility (H)
Level 2 - Power Attack
Level 3 - Combat Expertise
Level 4 - Spring Attack, retrain Power Attack into Whirlwind Attack
Level 5 - Power Attack
Level 6 - Lunge
Suppose I'm multiclassing into Cavalier at level 7, is there a feat that would make my mount stronger than a 1st-level Cavalier's mount?

Bearded Ben |

Suppose I'm multiclassing into Cavalier at level 7, is there a feat that would make my mount stronger than a 1st-level Cavalier's mount?
Boon Companion would make your mount four levels stronger.

3.5 Loyalist |

You could make him a fighter monk, yes with dodge and expertise and other defensive feats. One that loves to fence without armour, but when on the field armours up in very pretty plate.
You could drag out the 3.5 swashbuckler for him. The skills are right, the insightful strike, defences and use of light weapons and rapier is right.
Check around for duellist type prestige classes. You could make him a feinting rogue with defensive feats.

Maerimydra |

Maerimydra wrote:Suppose I'm multiclassing into Cavalier at level 7, is there a feat that would make my mount stronger than a 1st-level Cavalier's mount?Boon Companion would make your mount four levels stronger.
Thank you Bearded Ben, this is what I was looking for.

Maerimydra |

One of the more combat-oriented Bards could also work - either of the Dervish archetypes, Arcane Duelist, or just a straight-up bard. The ability to inspire a group to greater heights, while being deft and precise in combat?
You could certainly do worse. What's the party composition?
We just finished The Haunting of Harrowstone. The party is composed of a well-rounded Alchemist (my present character), a Fighter/Cleric wielding a lucerne hammer (ugly but as strong as an ox, he also loves to enlarge himself), a Dex-based blabebound Magus wielding a black rapier, an Evoker (our main blaster) and a board'n'sword Ranger guide. Since this AP seems quite deadly, party composition may change over time.
Don't be afraid to present me a build. Maybe I'm not aware of some efficient builds that you guys could come up with.
For example, I just checked the Duelist PrC, and it seems that this class doesn't lose much when wearing a heavy armor. In fact, a Fighter/Dueslit would be stupid NOT to wear a heavy armor IMO. The bonus to AC you get from wearing a heavy armor is way more important than the few class abilities that you lose for doing so, unless you're really scared of touch attacks. :)

Killstring |

Honestly, a Bard could be a lot of fun, as that's an awful lot of people making attack rolls, so your utility should be high.
Add in the ability to be a spectacular Face, a versatile spell list, fantastic skills - and of course your own melee competence - and you've got a solid candidate.
Having said that, Cavaliers are also pretty spectacular.
Also, I love Inquisitors, and thus take this opportunity to plug my favorite versatile little class. Though it might make more sense if you wanted to include some of the more mystical elements of Griffith.
Also, +1 to eternity for reminding me of one of my favorite Anime of all time.

KainPen |
Griffith is Anti Paladin Thru and Thru playing the role of the Paladin. I Say he was Lawful evil thou not CE. He would use rapier and be dex combat expertise build. maybe predigesting in to Duelist. Even in his youth he knew dam well what would be required to be come a king because he was a commoner. He knew the path would be litter with blood and bodies and did it anyway. There was no good in Griffith what so ever. He only played the part Anti-Paldin with Bluff maxed out and skill focus in it. A Fighter/Barb Cohort.

Gignere |
I would do a Bard/Lore Warden multi class. I don't know if you can get it exactly with mutliclassing because you kinda need gestalt Bard/Lore Warden.
He can definitely inspire courage, and his fighting style is analyzing his opponents and finding their weakness which is the same as the Lore Warden's special ability at level 7.
You may also look into the prestige class Student of War. Plenty of options for an int based fighter in that PRC.

Gignere |
Ok 15 PB is hard to do justice for Griffith but this is my stab at it. Not sure what race you will make him as, I can see human, half elf, and aasimar (azata touched) as fitting:
Str: 10
Dex: 15 (Racial bonus and level ups go here)
Con: 13 (put one level up here)
Int: 12
Wis: 8
Cha: 14
Bard 1: Weapon Finesse
Bard 2:
Cavalier 3: Dervish Dance, Teamwork Feat (Precise or Outflank)
Cavalier 4: Dazzling Display
Bard 5: Weapon Focus: Scimitar
Battle Herald: 6
Battle Herald: 7 Shattered Defense or if your GM allows Leadership
Battle Herald: 8
Battle Herald: 9 Shattered Defense if you picked Leadership at 7, if your GM does no allow Leadership, you can choose a number of good feats. If you want to fight better, you may consider Big Game Hunter, Two Weapon Fighting (use armor spikes), or even Eldritch Heritage feats if you started as half elf or human and chose focused study.
For Command Words grab Sound the Charge, than all the reroll ones, topping off with Inspire Hardiness.
A good trick maybe skill focus: perform than use versatile performance for intimidate. If you pick human but not focus study consider Improve Initiative since debuffing and buffing first can make a huge difference.
Tactics: Dazzling Display followed by Inspire Courage in first round. Charge and smack them with Scimitar the next round.
With Dervish Dance + almost full bab + inspire courage your DPR should be pretty high. If you go TWF at higher levels you can easily match the THF’s DPR.
Edit: If your GM bans leadership, you may want to negotiate and gain something for the leadership bonus Battle Herald gets. Not sure if it is worth an extra feat but maybe ask him if you can gain like 3 rounds of extra inspiring command (this is equivalent to a trait).
Edit2: For traits grab reactionary and whatever one that may give you a +1 to will saves to make up for the 8 in wisdom.

Gignere |
Gignere wrote:...Dazzling Display comes from the Order of the Cockatrice, is that it?
Also, why not starting as a Cavalier instead of Bard for an extra 2 hp? :-)
You can, I just changed one of my existing Bard/Fighter builds. That one I have to start as bard because it was a dawnflower dervish and I was planning to start him at level 1. So if you start as Cavalier that is fine too.

Maerimydra |

If I go the Battle Herald way, I think I would make these changes to the stats array you suggested:
Str: 13 (to squeeze Power Attack into this build, might be worth it in the long run)
Dex: 15 (Racial bonus and level ups go here)
Con: 12 (less hp, but I would put all my level ups into Dex)
Int: 13 (if I ever want to take Combat Expertise as a prerequisite for something else, like Whirlwind Attack)
Wis: 8
Cha: 12 (doesn't hurt the character concept too much)
Bards have good Ref and Will saves
Cavaliers have good Fort saves
Battle Heralds have good Fort and Will saves
High Dex makes up for low base Ref saves
Seems like a pretty decent character, I'll consider it! :)

Gignere |
If I go the Battle Herald way, I think I would make these changes to the stats array you suggested:
Str: 13 (to squeeze Power Attack into this build, might be worth it in the long run)
Dex: 15 (Racial bonus and level ups go here)
Con: 12 (less hp, but I would put all my level ups into Dex)
Int: 13 (if I ever want to take Combat Expertise as a prerequisite for something else, like Whirlwind Attack)
Wis: 8
Cha: 12 (doesn't hurt the character concept too much)Bards have good Ref and Will saves
Cavaliers have good Fort saves
Battle Heralds have good Fort and Will saves
High Dex makes up for low base Ref savesSeems like a pretty decent character, I'll consider it! :)
Ok, if you like this array better, you may want to consider starting as Gendarme, to trade your teamwork feat for PA. What is cool is that the Battle Herald levels give you your tactician ability back, and it stacks with cavalier levels so it doesn't matter that Gendarme gives up tactician.
However, I must say don't get Combat Expertise for Whirlwind attack because that is a 5 feat investment, this character just doesn't have enough feats to pull it off. The reason for Combat Expertise is to grab one of the maneuvers or moonlight stalker. These are less feat intensive and gives good bang for your buck. I would never try to build whirlwind attack without all the fighter bonus feats.
I still think combat expertise is a bad investment for this character, I think focusing on intimidate with skill focus: perform is pretty amazing you'll get 3 skill focuses for the price of 1. You will want a high intimidate to dazzling display and make the condition stick for a few rounds.
If you pick human you can get 3 skill focuses by giving up your level 1 feat. Even if you don't go the eldritch heritage route, having skill focus perform and perception is very nice.
I think you are trying to do too much with your character. I find in PF you pick a couple of things to be good at and that makes your character much stronger and enjoyable.
My build and your tweaks already guarantee a high DPR, it will be a good skill monkey and face, and you will be a pretty awesome buffer. I really don't think you need to become a crowd killing specialist on top of a maneuver specialist.

Maerimydra |

OK, what do you think of this build then?
Human
FC: Bard
Str: 13
Dex: 17 (level ups go here)
Con: 13
Int: 12
Wis: 8
Cha: 12
Bard 1: Weapon Finesse, Power Attack (H)
Bard 2:
Bard 3: Dervish Dance
Bard 4: Gallant Inspiration as my 2nd level spell
Cavalier 5: Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Broken Wing Gambit (TF, need 5 ranks in Bluff)
Cavalier 6: Dazzling Display (C)
Battle Herald 7: Shatter Defense
Battle Herald 8:
Battle Herald 9: Lingering Performance (so that I could stack Bardic performance with Inspiring Command)
Battle Herald 10:
Battle Herald 11: Skill Focus (Perform/Intimidate)
Battle Herald 12:
Battle Herald 13: ?
Battle Herald 14:
Battle Herald 15: ?

Gignere |
OK, what do you think of this build then?
Human
FC: BardStr: 13
Dex: 17 (level ups go here)
Con: 12
Int: 13
Wis: 8
Cha: 12Cavalier 1: Weapon Finesse, Power Attack (H)
Bard 2:
Bard 3: Dervish Dance
Bard 4:
Cavalier 5: Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Dazzling Display (C), Broken Wing Gambit (TF, need 5 ranks in Bluff)
Battle Herald 6:
Battle Herald 7: Lingering Performance (so that I could stack Bardic performance with Inspiring Command)
Battle Herald 8:
Battle Herald 9: Horse Master (Character level = Cavalier level for mount)
Battle Herald 10:
Fighter 11: Dodge, Combat Reflexes (B)
Fighter 12: Mobility (B)
Fighter 13: Combat Patrol :-)I modified the level progression so that I could take Broken Wing Gambit as my Teamwork Feat, which seems like the most powerful Teamwork Feat in the universe. ;)
Unfortunately Tactician comes in at level 1 for cavalier. Use Gendarme as your cavalier level so you get PA as a bonus feat. For the human feat you may want to trade it for 3 skill focuses. I don't like any of the team work feats unless your party members actually have the feat. Spending a standard to grant them the feat is a poor use of your action economy.
First round you should be using inspire courage as a move action, than followed by dazzling display as a standard. Next round you should charge with PA up and bam shattered defenses. 3rd round you are full attacking someone that is shaken and flat footed.
Lingering Performance is nice but I don't think it is necessary since you will have very few rounds of bardic performance anyway, you should be stacking it with inspire command to maximize coverage of inspire courage and/or sound the charge.
You don't qualify for Horse Master you need horse expert (level 4 cav) and battle herald doesn't offer it.
I probably would recommend against taking a straight fighter, maybe weapon master if you must multi into fighter. I think staying battle herald is better because higher IC bonuses is probably more beneficial for you and the group than any additional options you pick up from fighter. Now if you are the only tank than it may make sense to ditch the Battle Herald levels, if not just keep on trucking with the PRC.

Maerimydra |

Damn you're right. However, I think that the extra rounds of Bardic Performance you get with Lingering Performance doesn't count against my daily limit or Bardic Performance rounds, am I right? That could be a huge boon since I do not have a huge number of Bardic Performance rounds. I would activate Bardic Performance for only 1 round and then "turn it off".
EDIT: I just edited my build, you can check it out.
EDIT: Edited my build again for full Battle Herald progression.
EDIT: What feats would you take at level 13 and 15?
Seems like a fun character to play by the way, thanks. :)

Gignere |
Damn you're right. However, I think that the extra rounds of Bardic Performance you get with Lingering Performance doesn't count against my daily limit or Bardic Performance rounds, am I right? Take could be a huge boon since I do not have a huge number of Bardic Performance rounds.
Yeah the bad thing about lingering performance is that you get something very similar Persistent Command. However PC applies to both your bardic performance (used to start inspire command) and inspire command. Because of this it cheapens what is normally an astounding feat for bards. Not that it isn't good but it only affects bardic performance not inspiring command, and you only have what 11 rounds of bardic performance.
Starting and stopping performances will kill your action economy until you can do it as a swift action. That is level 5 in Battle Herald 3 more levels and you get Persistent Command. Personally I don't think Lingering is worth it for this build.

Gignere |
Damn you're right. However, I think that the extra rounds of Bardic Performance you get with Lingering Performance doesn't count against my daily limit or Bardic Performance rounds, am I right? That could be a huge boon since I do not have a huge number of Bardic Performance rounds. I would activate Bardic Performance for only 1 round and then "turn it off".
EDIT: I just edited my build, you can check it out.
EDIT: Edited my build again for full Battle Herald progression.
Can't get PA at level 1 as Bard, you need BAB 1.

Maerimydra |

OK, what do you think of this build then?
Human
FC: Bard
Str: 13
Dex: 17 (level ups go here)
Con: 13 (one level up goes here)
Int: 12
Wis: 8
Cha: 12
Bard 1: Weapon Finesse, Lingering Performance (H)
Bard 2:
Bard 3: Dervish Dance
Bard 4: Gallant Inspiration as my 2nd level spell
Cavalier 5: Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Broken Wing Gambit (C, needs 5 ranks in Bluff)
Cavalier 6: Dazzling Display (C)
Battle Herald 7: Shatter Defense
Battle Herald 8:
Battle Herald 9: Power Attack
Battle Herald 10:
Battle Herald 11: Skill Focus (Perform/Intimidate)
Battle Herald 12:
Battle Herald 13: ?
Battle Herald 14:
Battle Herald 15: ?
(Switched Lingering Performance with Power Attack)
With all the AoO we could get from Broken Wing, I think this feat could be worth it in terms of action economy. Remember that there's 3 other meleers in this party (the magus, the ranger and the cleric).
EDIT: What feat would you take instead of Lingering Performance? Also, what feats would you take at level 13 and 15?

Gignere |
OK, what do you think of this build then?
Human
FC: BardStr: 13
Dex: 17 (level ups go here)
Con: 13 (one level up here)
Int: 12
Wis: 8
Cha: 12Bard 1: Weapon Finesse, Lingering Performance
Bard 2:
Bard 3: Dervish Dance
Bard 4: Gallant Inspiration as my 2nd level spell
Cavalier 5: Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Broken Wing Gambit (TF, need 5 ranks in Bluff)
Cavalier 6: Dazzling Display (C)
Battle Herald 7: Shatter Defense
Battle Herald 8:
Battle Herald 9: Power Attack (H)
Battle Herald 10:
Battle Herald 11: Skill Focus (Perform/Intimidate)
Battle Herald 12:
Battle Herald 13: ?
Battle Herald 14:
Battle Herald 15: ?(Switched Lingering Performance with Power Attack)
Looks pretty good. I think you get to choose two level 2 spells. Maybe mirror image.
Level 13 feat: Dazing Assault
Level 15 feat: Big Game Hunter ( I don't know just randomly throwing stuff out)

Gignere |
Wow, Dazing Assault looks brutal against low AC / low Fort opponents!
I think I should take Improved Critical, I'm fighting with a scimitar, after all.
Just get Scabbard of Keen Edges 150 minutes of keen split into 3 50 minutes duration. Should be more than enough and it saves you a feat.

Gignere |
Wow, Dazing Assault looks brutal against low AC / low Fort opponents!
I think I should take Improved Critical, I'm fighting with a scimitar, after all.
Also shaken is -2 to saves. So even against good fort saves creature you still got about a 20-25% chance of dazing them. Which is pretty awesome considering they need to make a save on every single attack if you bring it up and it hits.

Maerimydra |

OK, what do you think of this build then?
Human
FC: Bard
Str: 13
Dex: 17 (level ups go here)
Con: 13 (one level up goes here)
Int: 12
Wis: 8
Cha: 12
Bard 1: Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus (Intimidate + Perform + Acrobatics) (H)
Bard 2:
Bard 3: Dervish Dance
Bard 4: Gallant Inspiration and Heroism as my 2nd level spells
Cavalier 5: Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Broken Wing Gambit (C, needs 5 ranks in Bluff)
Cavalier 6: Dazzling Display (C)
Battle Herald 7: Shatter Defense
Battle Herald 8:
Battle Herald 9: Improved Critical (scimitar) or Power Attack
Battle Herald 10:
Battle Herald 11: Power Attack or Improved Critical (scimitar)
Battle Herald 12:
Battle Herald 13: Critical Focus or Dazzling Assault
Battle Herald 14:
Battle Herald 15: Tiring Critical or Ability Focus (Dazzling Assault, is this legal?)

Gignere |
OK, what do you think of this build then?
Human
FC: BardStr: 13
Dex: 17 (level ups go here)
Con: 13 (one level up goes here)
Int: 12
Wis: 8
Cha: 12Bard 1: Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus (Perform/Intimidate) (H)
Bard 2:
Bard 3: Dervish Dance
Bard 4: Gallant Inspiration as my 2nd level spell
Cavalier 5: Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Broken Wing Gambit (C, needs 5 ranks in Bluff)
Cavalier 6: Dazzling Display (C)
Battle Herald 7: Shatter Defense
Battle Herald 8:
Battle Herald 9: Improved Critical (scimitar)
Battle Herald 10:
Battle Herald 11: Power Attack
Battle Herald 12:
Battle Herald 13: Critical Focus
Battle Herald 14:
Battle Herald 15: Tiring Critical
For a human if you plan to take skill focus just get the alternate racial trait that gives 3 skill focus. I think 1 at level 1 and than another at level 8 and 1 more at 16.
So skill focus: intimidate at level 1, skill focus: perform oratory at 8.
If you make it to 16 skill focus perception.
This is the equivalent of getting skill focuses on intimidate, diplomacy, sense motive perception and perform: oratory.

Gignere |
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Ability Focus (Dazzing Assault, is this legal?)
Yes it is. Awesome now I want to play a Battle Herald too.
So at high levels you can swift action: IC, move action tactician BWG, standard action dazzling display. Second round charge power attack and shatter defense if hit. Round 3 dazing assault against a shaken and flat foot opponent with a +4 to hit from IC, lol. This is too great.

Maerimydra |

So at high levels you can swift action: IC, move action tactician BWG, standard action dazzling display. Second round charge power attack and shatter defense if hit. Round 3 dazing assault against a shaken and flat foot opponent with a +4 to hit from IC, lol. This is too great.
Indeed, it is. o_O

Maerimydra |

Turns out that Bard are not proeficient with scimitar, forcing me to take a level of Cavalier before taking Dervish Dance.
Human
FC: Bard
Str: 13
Dex: 17 (level ups go here)
Con: 13 (one level up goes here)
Int: 12
Wis: 8
Cha: 12
Cavalier 1: Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus (Intimidate + Perform: Oratory + Acrobatics) (H), Precise Strike (C; Tactician)
Cavalier 2: Dazzling Display (C)
Bard 3: Dervish Dance
Bard 4:
Bard 5: Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
Battle Herald 6:
Battle Herald 7: Shatter Defense
Battle Herald 8:
Battle Herald 9: Improved Critical (scimitar)
Battle Herald 10:
Battle Herald 11: Power Attack, Broken Wing Gambit (BH; Tactician)
Battle Herald 12:
Battle Herald 13: Critical Focus or Dazzling Assault
Battle Herald 14:
Battle Herald 15: Tiring Critical or Ability Focus (Dazzling Assault)
At least in this way I would get the "capstone" ability of the Battle Herald.

Gignere |
Turns out that Bard are not proeficient with scimitar, forcing me to take a level of Cavalier before taking Dervish Dance.
Human
FC: BardStr: 13
Dex: 17 (level ups go here)
Con: 13 (one level up goes here)
Int: 12
Wis: 8
Cha: 12Cavalier 1: Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus (Intimidate + Perform: Oratory + Acrobatics) (H)
Cavalier 2: Dazzling Display (C), Precise Strike (C; Tactician)
Bard 3: Dervish Dance
Bard 4:
Bard 5: Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
Battle Herald 6:
Battle Herald 7: Shatter Defense
Battle Herald 8:
Battle Herald 9: Improved Critical (scimitar)
Battle Herald 10:
Battle Herald 11: Power Attack, Broken Wing Gambit (BH; Tactician)
Battle Herald 12:
Battle Herald 13: Critical Focus or Dazzling Assault
Battle Herald 14:
Battle Herald 15: Tiring Critical or Ability Focus (Dazzling Assault)At least in this way I would get the "capstone" ability of the Battle Herald.
Minor nitpick Precise strike is level 1.

folomo |
Im not really sure if this is admitted on a PFS game, but I think using the Dawnflower Dervish archetype from the bard is a better option.
It gives you proficiency with scimitars and Dervish Dances as a bonus feat at lvl 1.
Also, you can use the modified inspire courage as a move action instead of a standard action from lvl 1.
The only downside is that to compensate the lack of area-wide inspire courage you will have to take "sound the charge" as a command.

Maerimydra |

Im not really sure if this is admitted on a PFS game, but I think using the Dawnflower Dervish archetype from the bard is a better option.
It gives you proficiency with scimitars and Dervish Dances as a bonus feat at lvl 1.
Also, you can use the modified inspire courage as a move action instead of a standard action from lvl 1.
The only downside is that to compensate the lack of area-wide inspire courage you will have to take "sound the charge" as a command.
The thing is, I'm not sure if the ''modified'' Inspire Courage of the Dawnflower Dervish could qualify as a prerequisite for Battle Herald.