If my players are going to go THAT far out of their way to avoid any kind of adventure, then why am I running a game for them?
If my players are going to go THAT far out of their way to avoid any kind of adventure, then why am I running a game for them?
If they don't care enough about your story to see it through, then perhaps make a change to it. It could be something they don't care about (either in-character, out of character, or both). It could bore them. Or you could have a*%$~~% players who just want to be difficult. It's always best to take it case-by-case. That said, if someone has the ability to do something but then they never get to use it because of how the game is run (like crafting) or for arbitrary reasons (like Teleport) then yeah, it stands to reason they might get annoyed; if you aren't going to let it be used, then tell them that up front and let them get something else.
If my players are going to go THAT far out of their way to avoid any kind of adventure, then why am I running a game for them?If they don't care enough about your story to see it through, then perhaps make a change to it. It could be something they don't care about (either in-character, out of character, or both). It could bore them. Or you could have a+*&#*! players who just want to be difficult. It's always best to take it case-by-case. That said, if someone has the ability to do something but then they never get to use it because of how the game is run (like crafting) or for arbitrary reasons (like Teleport) then yeah, it stands to reason they might get annoyed; if you aren't going to let it be used, then tell them that up front and let them get something else.
Doesn't effect me because I do give them time to craft. But whether or not I do or don't, I want my players to act like adults and tell me when they have issues so I can correct those issues. Not act like petulant children and purposefully sabotage a campaign. I'm a tough guy and they won't hurt my feelings if they tell me there is something about my campaign they don't enjoy. But if my players don't tell me and just give me the proverbial middle finger in game, how can I fix the game?
I actually had a similar issue very recently where my ranger's newly hatched roc only had one trick. He said that he need more time to train it, so coming Monday, I'll be giving the crew a week and some change so they can take care of things like that. If he hadn't had told me and instead just ran off to abandon the crew in their dire need, myself and the other players would have been fairly peeved and he probably wouldn't have been invited back. But again, I pick my players carefully and only game with my friends that are really mature.
You can also counter that with Kingmaker where you have unlimited free time to craft married with free gold.
In most games unless the DM goes out of his way to screw them outta time the PCs will have time available to craft or they will force the issue with the DM.
DM Guys XYZ needs saved from the BBEG go to it.
PCs. Screw tis ima having a holiday gonna craft XYZ.
DM. But you are good aligned.
Players. Not anymore. Just changed to neutral.
DM. But what about XYZ city, btw assassins are now after you.
Players. We'll sail away in a caravel.
DM. No boats are available.
Players. Screw this we're teleporting to ABC location.
DM. Erm your teleport spell doesn't work.
etc
Basically you should either let the PCs craft what they like (within limits) or just ban the item creation feats.
Most players I know don't force the issue. What should happen is the player talking to the GM before the game, and the can let the player know if crafting will have enough time to take place.
As a GM I would not care if the players did not save anyone. The plot would go on. If the players are fine with the campaign failing then so am I.
As long as you don't use a rapier (to be effective anyway).
The guy is loving on vital strike... he could be a lost cause.
Personally I would probably hit MoMS monk 2~4 for crane style and crane wing before hitting fighter for bonus feats.picking up snake style means we can go unarmed for duelist if we want. For S&G's we'll go halfing and grab cautious fighter for an additional +2 to AC. I wouldn't bother with wisdom instead wearing light armor. Heck use daggers with agile if we want and piranha strike. Pick up crane reposite at level 7 and have some fun. Singleton fighter means a bit more AC and damage though I think I would prefer weapon master for the eventual gloves.
If we wanted to delay the duelist levels a bit ninja could add fun putting it at ninja 2 fighter 3 monk 4 or some such.
Or you could just buy an agile rapier. since the fighter can afford a +2 effective weapon at level five, why cant the duelist? or are you going to say that's too obscure for usage? Either way, enjoy playing a duelist! :)
Not a bad idea but after 3.5 splatbook o rama our PF games are more or less limited to core, ultimate combat, ultmate magic, and advanced players guide.
Just kinda finding out about things like agile weapon, and piranha strike which are in somewhat obscure PF books.
I made up some home brew feats which let people do it as I have no isse with dex to damage or intelligence. When I see THW users doing copious amounts of damage and wizards casting haste from level 5 onwards I don't care about dex to damage.
I just looked at D&D Next for the 1st time last night. Basically you get weapon finesse and dex to damage with any finesseable weapon and missile weapons, no feats required. Theres even a fighter duelist archtype in core rules. Its so hard in pathfinder to do so and requires extreme specialisation on the assumption the DM lets you use everything and you're kinda borked without your weapon of choice. I couldn't stand 4th ed but its something thats always annoyed me in 3.5 and now PF. To be effective at melee you have to specialise in it. Ranged encounter you are kinda borked and your DPM usually drops by at least half.
YOu can play a duelist in PF it seems but you either need a scimitar or an agile weapon. That or suck/be less effective. I'll probaby end up rewriting the Monk and Fighter classes anyway as I already have overhauled the fighter skill list and give them 4 skill points a level.
Personally I'm leaning towards less specialisation and more versatility.
One of the uber specialised builds would not work at all in my games I DM for the group as to be effective it had to sacrfice everything in a narrow path. Most of my D&D games are roughly broken down to.
1/4 melee
1/4 ranged
1/4 social/RPG
1/4 story/campaign development.
A level 5 fighter type (duelist) with a +1 wil save is gonna have a bad day in my games.
What I find funny is that alot of the builds are using feats that have been favourites to abuse since 3.0. People broke rapid shot back in 2001, power attack now has a dex based varient.
They're not as broken as spells of course but players seem to start wondering way they are either having an easy time in combat or why they only get to be great about 1/4 of the time. In kingmaker we had a uber THW fighter, and an archer rnager using the obvious feats. Specialisation to that degree tends to ruin prepublished adventures.
Hell its one reason PF tends to fall apart at higher levels as the game doesn't work very well even if you don't take spellcasters and have archers and the like as the DPM will basically massacre anything that doesn't cast spells to help negate them.
wind wall negates archers.
invisability negates two handed weapons
And if I don't want to have every encounter with magic or a contrived terrain setup?
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Personally I'm leaning towards less specialisation and more versatility.
One of the uber specialised builds would not work at all in my games I DM for the group as to be effective it had to sacrfice everything in a narrow path. Most of my D&D games are roughly broken down to.
1/4 melee
1/4 ranged
1/4 social/RPG
1/4 story/campaign development.A level 5 fighter type (duelist) with a +1 wil save is gonna have a bad day in my games.
What I find funny is that alot of the builds are using feats that have been favourites to abuse since 3.0. People broke rapid shot back in 2001, power attack now has a dex based varient.
They're not as broken as spells of course but players seem to start wondering way they are either having an easy time in combat or why they only get to be great about 1/4 of the time. In kingmaker we had a uber THW fighter, and an archer rnager using the obvious feats. Specialisation to that degree tends to ruin prepublished adventures.
Hell its one reason PF tends to fall apart at higher levels as the game doesn't work very well even if you don't take spellcasters and have archers and the like as the DPM will basically massacre anything that doesn't cast spells to help negate them.
wind wall negates archers.
invisability negates two handed weaponsAnd if I don't want to have every encounter with magic or a contrived terrain setup?
I'm not sure what any of this means.
Are you saying that duelists are not versatile enough?
Or that spellcasting is broken?
Or that the whole game in necessarily contrived?
Or that all fighters should take iron will?
Or what?
I don't get it.
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Personally I'm leaning towards less specialisation and more versatility...........STUFF......
I've been following this thread because I was looking for people's comments on how to build a viable duellist, whether with the PrC or not, as I find it a difficult concept to build in pathfinder (aside from using a Magus).
But I have -no- idea what the post was taking about or where it came from!
The amin point being outside of a few narrow builds using feats that one may or may not be allowed to use the duelist is a difficult concept to pull off. Previous post= brianfart ramble.
For a high dex duelist type, I'd probably go Lore Warden archetype and build him as a maneuver specialist.
Human
15 pt buy: str 12, dex 18 (16+2), con 12, int 14, wis 10, cha 7
Feats:
1st: Weapon finesse, weapon focus (Rapier), dodge
2nd: Combat Expertise (from archetype), Agile Maneuvers
3rd: Improved trip (or Improved disarm)
4th: Combat Reflexes
5th: mobility
6th: Combat patrol
7th: Whichever maneuver you didn't take at second.
8th: Greater weapon focus (Rapier)
9th: Improved Critical
10th: Critical Focus
At 10th level, your CMB when tripping or disarming is going to be +25 before magic items or spells (+10 BAB, +5 dex, +4 from lore warden, +2 from weapon foci, +2 from weapon training, +2 from improved maneuver). Also, you can set up a zone where if someone moves within 15 feet of you, they are going to be tripped or disarmed. Sure, you won't be doing as much damage as a two hander, but that is not what you are specializing in. If you are willing to drop weapon focus, you can get the other feats a level earlier.
If you really want, you can drop a level of duelist in there, just for the canny defense, but I'd stay lore warden the entire way.
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Well, you only get the weapon bonuses if you're actually using the weapon to do the maneuver. For disarm, yes you're using the rapier, but for trip, you'd be using your CMB and other bonuses, but nothing having to do with the weapon unless it has the "trip" quality.
According to the FAQ, that is incorrect. You can trip with any weapon, the trip quality means that if you fail by 10 or more, you can choose to drop the weapon instead of falling prone.
FAQ in question.