Here's my issue: WBL and treasure/encounter lays out a rough blueprint for items the party should have at any given level and I've followed that for the most part (the party's a little over in GP at level 3 but not insanely).
Anyway, I've come to find that my players are a little grumbly about the fact that most of their wealth is in gold and fancy but mundane items instead of magic, yet despite 3 separate occasions for them to PURCHASE magic items they say it leaves a bad taste in their mouths thematically and they refuse to do it.
I tried the whole "it's not a magic shop, it's a crazed old gypsy woman with a cart of 'oddities'" but they're still not satisfied. The players have asked that I just drop more magic items around, but that doesn't fit MY style. What would you do?
Easy enough. Tell them that what they pick up will get better over time/level. You might toss in some equipment with special properties, particularly to fight that one BBEG that happens to have DR/silver. Note that I didn't say "one for everybody" just one weapon, and make sure it is one nearly every one in the party can use.
This way they players get the thought process of "need" or "greed" like in mmos out of their head. There are some times where it just has to go to someone else to make sense. For instance the party wizard will rarely have use for that adamantine orc double axe.. even if he was somehow proficient... (for our purpose lets say everyone is half orcs) they will learn to divide things either by "finders keepers" or by "this goes with you"
My group tends to vacillate between these. It has a lot to do with if I am GMing or in as a player. When I am a player I *force* them to go with "this goes with you" and in my runs "finders keepers" tends to rule. It will change from time to time, but its something they need to pick up.
If the matter is that you're not giving away magic items just because they're at level 3, they have to understand that it's normal enough... otherwise, you must consider two things: first, the game openly assumes that characters have most of their WBL in the shape of magic items that are necessary to overcome most of the challenges assigned to their level, so, either you allow more magic items (by drop, purchase, or recovery of lost treasures and relics, that's your take) or adjust CRs. Second, unless the players are interested in running some economic activity or that sort of things, there's little point in having wagons of money if they can't be spent to increase the character's power.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The way I handle the whole "magic shoppe" is to make the world a magic shoppe. The players use Diplomacy to Gather Information on items they are searching for and then they find someone who has it, assuming that it's even available in the area they are in. They then get to do some role playing and negotiate for the item just like they did before except that they don't have a Magic*Mart to deal with.
I agree with your players on the purchasing of magic items. It feels "wrong" to just go to a store and buy some magic items. Some things, like potions, aren't so bad but others, like an Oathbow just feels wrong to me.
The other thing I do is that I let the party (or individual characters) get discounts for doing things that help the sellers. So if they bring back some relics for the church, they may get a 10% discount on consumables. If the NPC is a dwarf to the bone and prefers dwarves, he may give a 10% discount to dwarves but increase the cost to non-dwarves. This has let some characters use their disguise and acting skills to get a discount.
This has allowed the party to gain (and sometimes lose) contacts. I had one character once have different contacts for different identities for his character. It was interesting and fun.
|
Your players have no clue how lucky they were. I am sick and tired of having to deal with very limited resources available in games. As in i have almost no choice as to how to equip, i have to take what is handed out or from a super short list of items. I love the chance to buy what I want that's within reason(no more than half total gear value as a guideline, though I usually prefer many smaller items than one huge and only 2/3 small ones).
I agree the +1 weapons should begin dropping around level four. Other cheap but good items worth 1k would be cloaks of resistance, quick runner shirts, pearls of power, the alchemist equivalent Boro bead,. I think the real problem is that they should have so little money at level three that the game has very few permanent magic items that are not to expensive for them. At level three, even the +1 weapon or ring of protection would still be a big drop at just 2k. Just ask them to understand the math and wait till level 4 when things can afford to get interesting and not overboard expensive by cost vs level. By level five, things will get even better with stat boosting items coming into the mix.
Just wait 2/3 campaigns down the line and see if they still do not want to buy supplement book items instead of getting almost nothing but crb stuff in pure written adventures and get sick and tired of the old boring big 6 and overpriced almost never useful items in the crb. If they are still crying then, they are likly just too lazy to do the homework and look up them good items themselves.
Have the players fill out a "wish list" and craft some good drops around these.
Have their opponents in possession of these things, even using them against the PC's.
Make some of them cursed. Make some of them come with a storyline/questline of their own.
I don't blame you for wanting to avoid the "magic mart". It's most UN-magical, isn't it? Still, if the players want to buy potions and scrolls, let them if they're in a suitably-sized town. Encourage them to do this too, by having their opponents use potions and scrolls.
@ Bob and Owly: yes I agree w/my PCs that the "magic shoppe" is trite. And Bob - that's kind of what I've done. For example I know the dwarf PC has been wanting a magic warhammer. Last night I had the party come across a dwarven keep in the wilds. The character has Glory of Old as one of his traits and played it up w/some good roleplaying, so rather than just usher the party quickly over the bridge the keep was guarding (of course the dwarves WERE going to charge a modest fee) instead I had the wilderness keep take them in for a feast before they moved on.
During the course of the feast they brought up that they had many well crafted items including a couple magic ones. They displayed a hammer to the PC for him to peruse but he didn't want to just "buy it" by exchanging party items they'd just found plus some gold.
I have to be honest I was so flabbergasted I didn't have the dwarves offer a way for him to earn the hammer. Maybe I should have but I didn't. The keep guards LITERALLY offered the hammer to the PC on a silver platter and he refused.
This situation was what prompted this thread. I did ask for a bit of a whish list and I do have a wizard character prepared to craft scrolls, wands and eventually rings for the party, but the poor dwarf fighter is just kind of stuck waiting around for weapons, armor and wonderous items to drop from the sky.
I'm not strictly following WBL. I've had the conversations. I guess I just need to incentivize them better or create more deliberate "find stuff" challenges.
Instead of handing them a magical hammer, give the hammer some back story. Give it a name. It may only be a +1 warhammer but it is known as Bofakhammer. It was used by a Bofak Gutspiller in the Battle of the Scro 50 years ago. Bofak fought valiantly. He managed to defeat nearly a score of the intelligent orcs before going down. Before he died, he bequeathed his hammer, this hammer, to his son Bokaf. Bokaf has no children and your honor reminds us of him. Please, honor us and our clan by taking this hammer and letting the spirit of Bofak guide you in your quests. So long as you carry this hammer, you will be welcome here.
I have players that don't want to sell the items they find that are interesting even if the items are only simple +1 items. I had one player hold on to a +1 dagger from level 3 or so until level 18 or so because it was a gift and it meant a lot to his character. The only reason he sold it was because the world was coming to an end and they could prevent it if they had the right gear. Every coin mattered.
Illusion detector. You throw a cheep dagger at the suspicious thing.
If the dagger passes through, it's an illusion.
If the dagger rusts away, it's a disguised rust monster.
If the target goes away, it's a mirror image.
If the dagger hits, but does no damage, it's a were creature.
|
|
Flamehawke, are the players buying the same items they find? If not, they may not like the items at all. Throwing a shock longsword into the hoard may not be what the Chelaxian Hellnight wants. It may remind him too much of the chaos of Andoran. He may want a flaming weapon instead. Fire is also a symbol of choas but it is from hell so it may fit such a pc better. Throwing a flaming battleaxe into the hoard may be the same problem. An ax is a weapon of chaos in the spiritual weapon spell, the lawful PC may want the longsword as it is the lawful weapon in the same spell. Finding a keen great sword is less exciting when you have weapon focus and specialization in the falchion. In other words, not everyone agrees on what pieces of gear are the right gear for their PC versus someone else's PC.
Maybe they are afraid of picking up a cursed item. Maybe worried of picking up some weapon of legacy that detracts from their abilities in other ways. Maybe they do not agree with you that an extra ability is worth the weapon costing an extra 6 or 10 k gold, at least not that particular ability. Maybe they want cold iron, steel or laced with silver or adamantine.
I am really curious if anyone would turn down a weapon with a ruby in the pommel because they wanted a sapphire instead. Or how many people would be so greedy, they take the gem out to sell.
|
Most recent example Raymond. The party held onto Boots of Elvenkind and no one wanted them. So the treasurer sold them. Then one of them went and bought Boots of Elvenkind. The Druid wanted to boost her wisdom so I put in a Headband to boost her wisdom by 2 in the treasure. Also 2 Rings of Protection +2. The druid turned both down and just bought them both in town.
I'd understand being worried about cursed items, but when I queried about that they said no it wasn't an issue as they could sort out a cursed item. Besides I actually double check that they have checked items before putting them on. I actually have never mixed cursed items in. Not on the random monsters. I put cursed items in specific areas where it makes sense to me that someone has it.
The druid plays by the rule of everything I do is to kill her character and just her character. She believes only an NPC will sell her safe magic items.
I just spoke with all of my players. They all stated they would like to find and sometimes purchase items, but thought because she was so paranoid she must be right. Even the two players who have been in the group longer fell for the paranoia.
|
|
This reminds me of one of my favorite lines in RPGs.
When they really are out to get you. It is not paranoia!
Sorry that does not help but I still think it is funny.
How about putting the right gear where they really need it. For example, plant a silver magic weapon soon before a vampire. Or a chaotic weapon before some monsters from the plane of law. Maybe something that provides fire resistance when they know going in the wizard is renown as a fire mage. Oil of bless weapon. Boots of flying when time is of the essence.
|
|
Talking to them worked out the kinks with them. She is the only one convinced still that I am out to kill her character. She simply does not buy into the treasure.
To give an idea of her mindset. They found a Deck of Many Things (heavily modified to be less dangerous) she drew a Holy Avenger. Then a paladin joined the group and she stated she would not hand it to him until he proved he would not try and kill the party in their sleep.
This is how she plays every single character. The party is not worthy of her full trust even if they travel together from lvl 1. She treats them as if they will kill her at any moment.
So I think treasure will work out better now, but I have never had a player so paranoid about magic items. That's including my mother who plays with us and she played under my father who put out tons upon tons of cursed items. His motto was "A good game ends in TPK and cursed items hasten the TPK."
|
|
Have you tried items specifically made for Druids? I am sure their must be at least one or two.
I got it! How about an amulet of natural attacks bane undead. It does not even it her if it was a cursed item, she could dismiss her animal companion if she does not like how it turns out. She can even put the animal in a cage first. Seems anti Druid to put an animal in a cage but someone that crazy may do so.
I tried the whole "it's not a magic shop, it's a crazed old gypsy woman with a cart of 'oddities'" but they're still not satisfied. The players have asked that I just drop more magic items around, but that doesn't fit MY style. What would you do?
Thank my lucky stars that I have players that don't think the magic items chapter is a catalog to pick and choose!?
So, what isn't your style? Characters finding magic items in treasure?Doesn't anyone evil use magic items? Aren't these rare items sometimes lost or hidden and forgotten. Why couldn't these be found? Is it really that much harder to believe in magic items "dropping from the sky" than people in a world would be willing to a hawk magic items from a cart like its a bunch of cabbages.
That being said, I would never turn down a chance to see what the crazy old crone had for sale or trade.
I guess I've always enjoyed finding a magic item and explaining what epic quest I undertook to obtain the item; rather than saying, "Yeah. I picked it up at Wiz-Mart. It was on sale. You can find 'em on aisle six by the feather tokens." I'm thinking your players are of a similar mindset. They want magic items to be special. They want to earn them.
I also like the serendipity of finding some wondrous item that you would never had bought from a vendor but that can be put to some ingenious use. Like last week when I pulled a black cat out of a Bag of Tricks and used it to freak out the overly superstitious NPC.
|
|
Actually the story of the Artifact is that only the Leader of the Northern Druids ever holds it. It does a lot of cold spells, renders her immune to cold and grants her the ability to ignore any cold based difficult terrain. Grants about 6 spells she can cast. Plus an ability to deal cold damage in a 20' radius around her that excludes her allies.
The Staff of the Winterbloom was crafted by a god and gifted to the first druid to lead the druids of the north. She is from the region it is meant for and hates it.
She has not put her animal companion in a cage, but it is a viper and she is from a land similar to the area of the Linnorm Kings.
Have them come to a town where they think everyone is a dopple-ganger or were. They cut their arm doing 1 point of damage to prove they have blood and don't have DR-silver. Have it turn out the rye turned moldy.
Either the PC will get the message or want to live there.
@ scott baio: I have the "they're too attached" problem too. The party is pushing 4th level and (since they won't buy magic items) I made the mistake of handing out a couple decent hoards so they're swimming in coin at the moment. They have enough for the Cleric of Erastil to simply go buy that magic bow she wants if she but sold the 4 masterwork daggers from level 1, adventure 1.
However she won't part with them. I gave them a cool story (do that w/masterwork and better items) and now she feels it would be a dishonor to the memory of the original owners to have them collecting dust on display in someone's gallery.
I had an email conversation just last week w/the players in which I laid out the case. I'd be willing to work w/them on the thematics but as a gm if they're not willing to expend resources for items which could turn the tide against the forces of evil then I would have to curtail the future funds from their ventures. They all came back with somehting to the effect of "I'm not saying I'll NEVER buy a magic item..."
It seems the threat of less money in their hoards was enough to motivate them to USE the money they have.