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There were pregens from the APG at one time, but they have been removed from play. It would not surprise me to see the ones from Ultimate Combat follow suit.
We have to ask ourselves what is the primary purpose of the pregens? They are there primarily to allow a new player, without their own character, to sit down and play. Those players likely have no or limited knowledge of the Pathfinder RPG. Providing one of the four core iconic pregens is a better choice. Let them focus on the basics of gameplay and pay attention to the story. If those elements grab their attention and they chose to join our community, then they can acquire the appropriate books and roll up whatever character they find interesting.
Sure pregens can fill other roles, but those are all secondary to their primary purpose. IMO, we just don't need a huge selection of pregens.
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Well if that's the case, how about just all the core classes from the core rule book? Most new players I've met gravitate towards the arcane the healer or tank or damage dealer, and the barbarian is something they all like.
The other issue is when you're playing a short table, and you want that hulking 2handed damage dealer... it's just a bit short on that list.
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But we need better quality pre-gens. The current ones are laughably bad. We spent the best part of an hour debating which level 7 pregen to add to our three player 7-11 table.
I had Merisel 4 go from full health to -40 in one swing. Subjecting new players to feeling useless and the snide remarks of the other players who are stuck with them isn't good for retaining new blood.
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But we need better quality pre-gens. The current ones are laughably bad.
That is a matter of opinion and has been debated ad nauseum. They function just fine for their purpose. This topic pops up every couple of months and always results in the same thing. In the limited scope of the forums which is an extremely small portion of the community, the opinions on the pregens are largely divided.
I had Merisel 4 go from full health to -40 in one swing.
Merisiel has a Con of 12 (average for PFS) and toughness. She has more hit points than the average d8 class and definately more than a d6 class. An attack that does 73 damage at level four is going to kill just about any PC. It has nothing to do with her status as a pregen. Hell a barbarian-4 with a base Con of 18, toughness, and raging only has 61.
Subjecting new players to feeling useless and the snide remarks of the other players who are stuck with them isn't good for retaining new blood.
If your established players are ridiculing n00bs because they are playing a pregen that is not as optimized as their characters, sorry, but your problem is with those "jerky" players, not the pregen.
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well I would like to say I have an idea about the subject
What if there was a build a pregen both at the next BIG (pathfinder society) convention? and then post the ten "best" builds for each class on the forums so all can see and choose the one that represents each class best?By "best" I mean playable, easy to understand and useful (useful as in Valeros isn't the INT guy he's a fighter built to fight not to "knowledge everything")
Because we need them at 1, 4, and 7 levels. Who is going to judge the ten best? A shield and sword fighter may not be what you think is the best fighter. Neither may a trip expert. Or a sunder expert. Or a two weapon fighter.
And when they get those, they have to go through development to make sure they are correct.
And then they need to go to layout and art.
And then they need to go to digital assets to be placed on the website for download.
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hit the maximum amount of characters last post sorry
who is qualified to judge them new people random people those whove never played at all split up the submitted pregens amungst the venture captains to give to completely new people to the game write down there feedback and voila the top ten.as for art if your replacing the old ones you have at least a base
They still have to be layed out, after they go through development. They then have to be sent to IT to be PDFed and placed on the web for download. It isn't a very easy process.
And getting feedback about 21 pregens is not as simple as you are making it out to be.
Like I said, let's wait for the NPC Codex and see if that addresses the issue.
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limited to the Core Rulebook, following the iconic theme of each pregen, and remaining legal for PFS, I doubt that any rebuilds of existing pregens would be a large enough improvement to be worth the investment in Paizo resources to complete such a project. Especially since their is absolutely no gain for them in revenue.
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I'd like to see just the Iconics from the Core Rulebook stated out. Remove the Ultimate Combat Iconics. I'm hoping the NPC Codex will have them.
This would motivate GMs to buy the minis for those Iconics and be able to let new players borrow them when they use a pregen. I already do this for the four base Iconic pregens.
New players eyes really light up when they see the actual mini that matches the art on their sheet. It is a powerful marketing tool.
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As an interesting note, the new Pathfinder comic books have a statted level 1 iconic at the back of each issue so far. I think they have done Merisel (issue 1) and Harsk (issue 2) so far?
Either way, although a few more pregens would be fun, I can absolutely see the problem for new players. The gunslinger pregen is already a pain for TRULY new people to learn. You have to teach touch-AC, another expendable resource (grit), reloading rules, range increments, etc... I have done it before, and truly regret not trying to talk the player out of it.
Remember there are two audiences for pregenerated characters: new players and experienced players who want to play at a scenario/module where they don't have a character in range. Having a pregen for every class would help the second group, but I think it will be more of a hindrance that help for new players.
If new ones are introduced, just add a barbarian, sorcerer, and ranger. Bard is a bit complex, and not as "rewarding" for new players (why should I spend my whole turn to inspire courage?). Monk is probably ok as well. All the APG classes are pretty complex (alchemist has extracts, mutagens, bombs; oracle has mysteries, spells, curses; cavalier has mounted combat; etc...). I think only inquisitor would be close to simple.
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Main issue I would see is that even staying with Core classes, you can still have multiple "Iconic" builds.
Fighter, as one example, would, IMO, have to have 4 builds, minimum, to offer a good snapshot of the class.
Two-weapon fighter, aka the current Valeros
Two-handed weapon fighter, aka BBDF
One-handed weapon and shield, aka Tank
Ranged weapon, aka the Archer
That doesn't even go into anything beyond he basics, like the combat maneuver fighter (even without Lore Warden).
Wizards? One for each school? Or just go for buffer, debuffer, blaster?
Clerics? Healbot, undead hunter, melee build, archer build, buffer build
To be honest, between weapon choices, spell choices, feat choices, race choices, domain choices, and archetypes, there is no such thing as a real "cap" on how many pregens people would want to have.
At this point, I think an iPad when I can afford one, the future version of Hero Lab for iPad, and a portable printer may be the best way to go...
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I think we are missing the point of pregens. They are really to allow a new player a chance to play without going through the task of character making and to avoid overloading them with a lot of rules. The high level ones are just a bonus to current players to allow them a chance to play the higher tiers when they have yet to get a character to that level.
They aren't supposed to be these amazing munchkins who tear up a scenario on their own. They are a taste of the game, or simply a substitute in the case of a current player.
Also nothing is stopping you from making a level 1 barbarian and handing it out to new players. Just write it up and hand it out. If the player doesn't like it they can change it according to the rewrite rules. The same goes for any of the base classes. Just keep it simple and stick to core book content. Same goes for any other class in the game. Just be ready to do some explaining if you are handing out a Magus, Samurai, Oracle, or etc and stick to stuff from only their book plus the core.
If you find out your created character goes over well with new players then feel free to post it for others to use.
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Also nothing is stopping you from making a level 1 barbarian and handing it out to new players. Just write it up and hand it out. If the player doesn't like it they can change it according to the rewrite rules. The same goes for any of the base classes. Just keep it simple and stick to core book content. Same goes for any other class in the game. Just be ready to do some explaining if you are handing out a Magus, Samurai, Oracle, or etc and stick to stuff from only their book plus the core.
Just remember that your level 1 barbarian "pregen" isn't legal for certain specific PFS purposes (like being run by the GM to make table limit when you only have 3 players), and that you can't make "simple" pregens for play above level 1. It only "works" at level 1 because there isn't any rule stating that players have to make their own characters (and then the rebuild rules let them make whatever they want later with their 1 chronicle).
I'm as much in favor of more/different selection as anyone, and I've played the pregens more than once. They certainly aren't uber-optimized, but they're not as terrible as people make them out to be (if played well), and they get better with age--level 7 Valeros is a surprisingly goot DPS build; just at level 1 he faces all the problems of a TWF character that doesn't max STR.
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Can someone please remove Magic Missile and Burning Hands from Ezeren's prepared spells?
Seriously, Level 1 Ezeren is a shame to all Wizards everywhere. I tell all players who play Ezeren to change the prepared spells with better stuff (LEGAL, because he's a Wizard, so I as GM just delay the game a day, in-game, and then they choose better spells).
Give him Color Spray and Grease and Sleep. He'll be far more awesome that way.
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Main issue I would see is that even staying with Core classes, you can still have multiple "Iconic" builds
As Mason said, this does not support the whole point of the pregens in the first place. They are disgined for n00bs who are unlikely to know the subtle mechanical differences between the various forms of Valeros. We need to focus on the K.I.S.S. method. That being said, I think we would all like a few more of the core iconics be spec'd out as official pregens. But even that is questionable. IMO, the only time we need to have more than the four existing core pregens is at a table with 5/6 players all using pregens. I hate to see two players using the same character and one probably forced into a name change to tell them apart. Also, if you like to use the painted minis, as most of us do, having two of the same on the battle board is problematic, especially for new players.
I think that Harsk, Seoni, & Seelah are probably all candidates for expansion. Amiri is cool, but I think her oversized sword is a bit much for a pregen, but changing it to a greatsword (or other THW) kinda breaks her iconic background. I could see Sajan added to the list once we have a mini for him.
And it has been a long-standing request that Ezren's spellbook be expanded, especially for the level 4/7 versions. I think most GMs allow/encourage players to make adjustments to his prepared spells to make him more useful as a wizard should be. He is pragmatic after all. :-)
I would like to ask (very very nicely) that when the issue is revisited that we get 11 pregens: one for each of the classes in the CRB...
I played a version of the /other/ rpg that had a number between 1 and 3, and know the "four core classes" pretty well.
There are way more options in Pathfinder and I would really like to give another class a try -- a pregen would be an excellent way for me to "sample" each of them.
I'd probably be way more likely to try a bard or summoner or something with a pregen instead of "...eh. I know rogue/cleric/wizard/fighter. Done."
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Just because I like wrenches... I would point out that having 'lots of options' for pre-gens, even if it's just 1 of each class, will cause decision paralysis for some people/drive some people away from tables. Also, people generally recognize the current pregen's classes and roles as they are (time and again) represented in the media: big strong fighter; sneaky-thief; the magic guy/Gandalf; healer/medic. (Even the Ultimate Combat pregens are this way: ninjas, samurai and gunslinger are iconic ideas in many modern societies).
If someone comes up to a table and wants to play, there is a large benefit to the simplicity of the current choices; if there were a bard/summoner/magus (for instance), ignoring the (relatively) complicated mechanics of those classes there would be a question of: This short guy, is he the sneaky-thief type? or does he fight with that dagger? And what does this guy do exactly?This one looks cool! But is he summoning a firebird or using his sword? In fact, aren't those last two doing kind-of the same thing, but one is short?
This guy doesn't really cause any questions. He's a tough guy with swords; he chops people, and his mechanics are simple.
I'm not a Paizo employee, so I can't speak to the goals of the pre-gens, but I would put forth that at least one goal is for completely new people (i.e. new to tabletop RPGs) to be able to sit down, play and have fun--simplicity in recognition of themes helps this occur. The 'new' player can pick the concept they want to use quickly based on a picture, and not have to concentrate on squidgy issues--just on doing the thing they wanted (sneaky around/cast magic/smash bad guys).
As a PFS player myself, I'd love to see more/better optimized pre-gens for when there's only 3 people at a table or we play a tier I wasn't expecting... but I suspect that wish is secondary (at best) to the likely goals of the people at Paizo.
I don't disagree one bit with your assessment, Odea.
I use pregens in exactly the way you describe first: teach somebody to play Pathfinder in the context of PFS organized play.
That being said, I've played and ran tables where everyone has a BOSS rogue or wizard ("Uh.. Who's going to heal us?") and /somebody/ gets to grumble a little, bust out a pregen, and take one for the team.
In that second case, it would be nice to have /some/ better choice than the four "core" iconics.
Maybe a little "green circle" (fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric), "blue square" (barbarian, bard, paladin, ranger), "black diamond" (monk, sorcerer, druid) system could help distinguish between the two goals:
1) Help people learn PFS
2) Give some pregen characters for when your main character gets borked by a monster, somebody sits down with the same concept, or you want to "test drive" a new class you normally wouldn't.
I don't think the goals are mutually exclusive.. After all, what real work is there besides the initial (1) create the character (2) playtest it a little (3) upload it to Paizo.com? My guess is that there are already some iconics for each class made that are easily adaptable. ^_^