I'd say it is worth it when grabbing Tiger Style and Dragon Style, where you can make full round attacks (or charge) anyways. For the other styles, I am unsure. For Boar Style, no it isn't.
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Honestly, after looking at the MoMS the advantages of using multiple styles is really nerfed by the lack of any ability to, well, use them. I think the monk class in general should have had the ability to use multiple styles and the freedom to take them as bonus feats.
Essentially, the MoMS is a two-level dip for any class but the monk to be better at beating the monk's face in at their own game. They get all the unarmed attacks, AC bonus, and a couple of free style feats without having to worry about prerequisites.
Yeah, Moms can work for certain builds, but by itself (without specifically building around it) the loss of flurry hurts for the monk class.
My dragon Disciple was going for a four level dip into MoMS to take dragon style and one other, the idea that full round attacks would be using natural attacks anyways so the loss of flurry would pretty much be wasted anyways. Situations like that is where MoMS shines.
If you can get your strength up high then Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity are good. Plus a high strength can compensate for the neg to hit if you use Crane Style.
Take a few levels of Alchemist to get a mutagen to bump up your strength even further.
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Nobody realizes what happens when you type Moms instead of MoMS?
I realised, but decided to keep mum about it.
Very much depends on your build. If you are just dipping into monk to get evasion or something like that then yes the MoMs is a great pick. If you are going streight monk then maybe not as much. Like it has been stated before it all depends on your build.
If your opponent refuses to hit you, you get to kill him slowly. If he does, you kill him quickly. It's his choice. =p This really is no different than a smart opponent not standing still and letting the monk full attack him all day.
You've pointed out the difference yourself: Lots of attacks on a full-attack, or lots of counter attacks. It's just a different playstyle. Whether or not it's worth it is up to you.
If you're asking 'can you build a strong MoMs monk,' then the answer is yes. Personally, I love the counterattack play style. Panther/snake/dragon/boar/crane(and twf)have all kinds of fun potential when you can use 3 at a time. Boar/dragon when full attacking, switch to crane/snake at the end of your turn. Or run around with panther/snake/boar(or dragon) provoking tons of AoOs and punching people in the face when they take try to hit you. Good times. ;)
It's nice, but if you are ignored it can be hard to actually have any impact. "Kill the enemy slowly" is not an option if he is killing your friends quickly, remember. Also, the kill him quickly option relies on him attacking you and missing. If he has the capacity to attack you and hit and score significant damage, he could kill you before your counter-attacks kill him.
Hello,
this is my first post and im not sure if this was discussed before.
i really like the new feats and archetypes for monks in APG and UC. Especially the MOMS.
But is the combination of styles worth the loss of Flurry of Blows? FOB is for me one if not the strongest features of a monk.
A Monk with the combination of Snake, Crane and Panther Style for example has really good defensive abilities but his offensive power is quite limited. What use are his many AOO if a smart opponent don´t use them?
Any Ideas?
Regards A.
If your opponent refuses to hit you, you get to kill him slowly. If he does, you kill him quickly. It's his choice. =p This really is no different than a smart opponent not standing still and letting the monk full attack him all day.
You've pointed out the difference yourself: Lots of attacks on a full-attack, or lots of counter attacks. It's just a different playstyle. Whether or not it's worth it is up to you.
If you're asking 'can you build a strong MoMs monk,' then the answer is yes. Personally, I love the counterattack play style. Panther/snake/dragon/boar/crane(and twf)have all kinds of fun potential when you can use 3 at a time. Boar/dragon when full attacking, switch to crane/snake at the end of your turn. Or run around with panther/snake/boar(or dragon) provoking tons of AoOs and punching people in the face when they take try to hit you. Good times. ;)
Hey Vestrial, can you give me an example how all three would work in a round please?
After 8 you dip fighter to scrounge a few more feats, pick up combat patrol and grab a reach weapon. Now when they provoke you get a free move, provoking attacks on the way *smack smack smack*.
I don't think a reach weapon is going to help you. I don't have the books in front of me but I fairly sure dragon,snake, and panther style only give you unarmed attacks of opportunity or effect unarmed strikes.
The combat style master feat allows you to start or switch one style as a free action. Taking it early lets you get 2 styles going in the first round. That's available at level 5. 8th level lets you have 3 active at once, so that's probably the level he's talking about.
My big problem with the master of many styles is that requires too many feats to get what I want out of it. If you try to take it to 20, you'll be able to use 5 styles at once. My picks would be crane, snake, tiger, dragon, and panther. Of those 5 styles, I can find maybe 2-4 feats out of the chain that I don't have to have, so that's of 11-13 feats spent just on styles. Add in dodge, power attack, elemental fist, and combat reflexes and you've got 15-17, which means I've basically used every feat on style feats and the feats that make them work. It's really feat intensive to get what you want out of this archetype.
My big problem with the master of many styles is that requires too many feats to get what I want out of it. If you try to take it to 20, you'll be able to use 5 styles at once. My picks would be crane, snake, tiger, dragon, and panther. Of those 5 styles, I can find maybe 2-4 feats out of the chain that I don't have to have, so that's of 11-13 feats spent just on styles. Add in dodge, power attack, elemental fist, and combat reflexes and you've got 15-17, which means I've basically used every feat on style feats and the feats that make them work. It's really feat intensive to get what you want out of this archetype.
This is my issue too. Given the number of feats you have to take as a monk just ion order to function effectively, MoMS gives you far more than you need. It is literally a dip class for non-monks to get better at beating monks.
All monks should have the ability to blend multiple styles (I mean they are martial arts styles intended for the martial arts character above all others, right?), and this archetype should never have been created IMHO. Since it has been, I will use it as cynically as every pother player, but that doesn't mean I like it.
Unfortunately it is even better as a 2 or 3 level dip in terms of optimizing.My big problem with the master of many styles is that requires too many feats to get what I want out of it. If you try to take it to 20, you'll be able to use 5 styles at once. My picks would be crane, snake, tiger, dragon, and panther. Of those 5 styles, I can find maybe 2-4 feats out of the chain that I don't have to have, so that's of 11-13 feats spent just on styles. Add in dodge, power attack, elemental fist, and combat reflexes and you've got 15-17, which means I've basically used every feat on style feats and the feats that make them work. It's really feat intensive to get what you want out of this archetype.This is my issue too. Given the number of feats you have to take as a monk just ion order to function effectively, MoMS gives you far more than you need. It is literally a dip class for non-monks to get better at beating monks.
All monks should have the ability to blend multiple styles (I mean they are martial arts styles intended for the martial arts character above all others, right?), and this archetype should never have been created IMHO. Since it has been, I will use it as cynically as every pother player, but that doesn't mean I like it.
MoMs is not 'literally' a dip class. MoMs works just fine as a straight monk, or with a dip into fighter for a couple extra feats. The entire archetype is about these particular feats. You don't chose a feat-intensive archetype then complain about the feats.
And who cares what happens at 20, the game is over. Even with only 3 active at a time MoMs is pretty damn good, and that happens at 8. And you don't gain much by keeping some of the styles active together. 5 is really overkill. If anything, I'd say MoMs is a 15 level class (but 8 is a good stepping off point as well).
I agree. I am not saying that the MoMS is not viable as a class - at least, no less viable than a normal monk - but it's nothing to write home about. As a two level dip, though, it's perfect!
I think needing to enter styles as a swift itself is bs. There's no time limit on them, maintaining them isn't strenuous. I can be in combat and RUNNING around in my style. Why the hell can't I just be in it while walking around between combats?