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So I know that an NPC with a class level (fighter, rogue, etc) is CR -1 and an NPC class (expert, warrior) is CR -2, but what if they're mixed? Say a human barbarian 2/expert 2, for example. Because they have a class level, that's -2, but does the NPC class superseed that causing a -2 instead?
In other words, is the human barbarian 2/expert 2 a CR 3 or a CR 2? Do either of these numbers go up when using Elite Array Stats (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8)? Would it go down if you used the lower stats?
So I know that an NPC with a class level (fighter, rogue, etc) is CR -1 and an NPC class (expert, warrior) is CR -2, but what if they're mixed? Say a human barbarian 2/expert 2, for example. Because they have a class level, that's -2, but does the NPC class superseed that causing a -2 instead?
I'm not sure, but im my mind: They add together seperately.
In other words, is the human barbarian 2/expert 2 a CR 3 or a CR 2?
[Expert 2 = CR 1/2] + [Barbarian 2 = CR 1] = CR 2.
Do either of these numbers go up when using Elite Array Stats (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8)? Would it go down if you used the lower stats?
You get Elite scores free with PC classes.
If you had lower stats (like all 10's) on PC classes that should be -1 CR.
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I believe that if a creature has 1 level of a PC class, even if all other levels are NPC classes, the CR is level -1.
A creature that possesses class levels, but does not have any racial Hit Dice, is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –1. A creature that only possesses non-player class levels (such as a warrior or adept) is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –2. If this reduction would reduce a creature's CR to below 1, its CR drops one step on the following progression for each step below 1 this reduction would make: 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/6, 1/8.
I just tried doing it in Hero Lab and they calculate it the way Elamdri said as far as I could tell.
Yup, that's what I was thinking too. Sounds kinda fair to me.
I think Trolls are different because they have racial hit dice. You use the monster advancement rules from the bestiary in that case.
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Does this count for progressing a monster as well? Say a troll? Do they suddenly get Elite Array?
The complete rules are in the back of the beastiary under monster advancement but here is the short:
1st: Determine monster role:
4 Roles:
Combat
Spell
Skill
Special
Certain classes are key classes for certain roles.
Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger are key for combat
The casters are key for spell
Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Bard and Rogue are key for skill
Monk and Paladin are key for no role
Special has no key classes.
2nd: If you add PC levels, adjust the stats: +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 assigned however it would best help the monster. NPC classes do not adjust stats.
Then you make all the level adjustments.
Then you give the monster Heroic NPC gear equal to an NPC with a CR equal to the monster's final CR (So if your monster has a final CR of 10, it has Heroic NPC gear for a level 11 NPC (which is a CR ll).
3rd: You determine the monster's final CR. Monsters with Class Levels gives general guidelines regarding which core classes add directly to a monster's abilities based on its role. Classes that are marked “key” generally add 1 to a creature's CR for each level added. Classes marked with a “—” increase a creature's CR by 1 for every 2 class levels added until the number of levels added are equal to (or exceed) the creature's original CR, at which point they are treated as “key” levels (adding 1 to the creature's CR for each level added). Creatures that fall into multiple roles treat a class as key if either of its roles treat the class as key. Note that levels in NPC classes are never considered key.
They don't get elite array, they get +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2 added to their base stats in a way that makes sense for the class you gave them. The CR adjustment is a little tricky you have to figure out if you are giving them classes that are considered "key" to the role they are supposed to fill.
Edit: Ninja'd.
They don't get elite array, they get +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2 added to their base stats in a way that makes sense for the class you gave them.
The reason for the +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2 adjustment is because that's (almost) exactly the same thing as adding the elite array to the monster.
The default monster statblock uses the 11-11-11-10-10-10 array. If you add +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2 to that array, one of the outcomes is 15-14-13-12-11-8, which (very nearly) equals the elite array.
Both methods (using the elite array vs adding the adjustments) are fairly interchangeable. There will be minor differences, but no more than +1 or -1.
Cool. I was wondering if that was the case.
(I wasn't correcting Elamdri, his post hadn't showed up when I started typing mine.)
In Herolab it calculates NPC levels as less than PC levels. So you can add 2 warrior levels and bump its CR by only 1.
In the CRB it says an NPC is = to CR-2, and a PC is CR-1, so in that sense it kind of makes sense.
I often give NPC's Warrior levels just to add a little beef to them and give them a little better swing. They don't get all the other benefits of being a fighter so it helps to make the combats more interesting.
the heroic gear is entirely a separate factor, and is listed as such in CRB. If you give them better gear, then you should adjust the CR the same way you would if you put the PC's into a disadvantageous terrain.
What that does let you do is cheat your CR's a little though, since you can add a single level of warrior without bumping the CR. That extra level probably does not factor in most of the time. I think it would when you are looking at the NPC getting an extra swing off or a maybe a better power attack, but those are situational.