| modicasolis |
I've been given carte blanche to rework my Bard. Feats, spells, the whole nine yards. I had built him very, very poorly initially and now, with the first act of our campaign done, our DM is okay with me heavily tweaking things.
Originally, I had created a Bard oriented towards casting with some back-up archery. However, this didn't work out that well in practice. I had chosen the wrong spells and feats. After casting Good Hope and playing Inspire Courage, I pretty much had nothing to do except very weak arrow damage. I had Confusion, but we fought a lot of undead. I had Slow, which I casted a lot, but the enemies had pretty high saves.
So what I'm trying to do now is create a stronger, more focused Bard, which is what I need help with. There are a few stipulations:
- The Bard must be a Gnome
- I want to focus more on Casting and Support (Buff/Debuff/Control)
- We are 11th Level
- Characters were built off of a 23 point buy starting at 5th Level
Any help would be really appreciated. I would like to feel much more effective in combat while staying true to a Support/Caster playstyle.
| Gauss |
Honestly, an archer bard is a good idea. However the feats involved are many so a bard needs to focus on it.
How I would do it (note: I normally do not do bards so this is just my attempt to fit an archer into a bard):
1) Point Blank Shot
3) Rapid Shot
5) Precise Shot
7) Deadly Aim
9) Manyshot
11)
This gives you attacks of +3(2arrows)/+3(rapid shot)/-2 before taking bonuses into account. Your damage will be 1d6+strength+6(deadly aim) before other bonuses.
Now, at level 11 this may seem low (and it is in fact). But, with spells and Inspire Courage you can actually bring this up significantly.
Inspire Courage brings this up to +6(*2)/+6/+1
Heroism brings this up to +8(*2)/+8/+3
Haste brings this up to +9(*2)/+9/+9/+4
You are small so that brings it up to +10(*2)/+10/+10/+5
All of that is before weapon enhancement and dexterity bonuses.
Make sure you have a Lesser Rod of Extend (3000gp) for your Heroism, that way it is nearly a daily spell (220minutes at level 11).
Since Inspire Courage is move action for you you can start Inspire Courage and cast Haste in your first full round of actions. Then start shooting.
Note: I realize you wanted to go a different direction than an archer. I was just showing you how a bard archer can be done.
- Gauss
| modicasolis |
I should add that my DM has said that I can also use spells from the Spell Compendium book. Which, at least for Bards, opens up a whole new realm of awesome.
For spells, here's what I'm thinking:
---
0th - Detect Magic, Read Magic, Spark, Mending, Ghost Sound, Message
1st - Saving Finale, Grease, Inspirational Boost (+1 to Inspire Courage), Unhand (Ranged disarm using CHA + DEX + CLvl), Targeting Ray (+1/3lvls to hit target, insight bonus), Vanish
2nd - Blistering Invective, Gallant Inspiration, Pyrotechnics, Blur, Mirror Image
3rd - Good Hope, Dispel Magic, Slow, Confusion (Haste is taken care of)
4th - Hold Creature, Fugue (or Wall of Sound, haven't decided)
---
If y'all have suggestions for spells, let me know!
I have no idea what feats I'd take, outside of Wand Casting: http://tinyurl.com/8jdy65h
| Sean FitzSimon |
Bards are amazing when done right but very easy to mess up, especially for a new player- so don't feel bad!
The first thing to realize about bards is that they're 50% caster, 50% weapon user. So while you want to focus on buffing/casting/support you should also keep something to do for your down time. Archery is usually a pretty good fall-back for the bard, and you only need about 3 feats to make it good enough. You won't be amazing, but you're not wasting anyone's time either.
Consider an archetype. Core bard is good, but if you're looking to specialize then an archetype is going to help greatly. Magician is the go-to for expanding your ability cast spells but comes at a pretty hefty cost: specifically, the loss of inspire courage and dirge of doom. Dirge Bard is my personal favorite for a caster sort, which gains a specifically non-evil animate dead ability and a series of necromancy spells from any arcane list. Dirges also gain the versatile performance for Intimidate and make fear effects increasingly difficult to resist. Very fun, but also riddled with necromantic flavor that some people don't like. Another option is Seasinger, which grants a familiar that you can trade in with Improved Familiar. Finally, Sandman is Paizo's response to 3.5's Beguiler and Spellthief. The Sandman gains bonuses to spells against flatfooted enemies, can put them to sleep with performances, has a slow progression of sneak attack, and can catch spells thrown at her and then cast them back. It's very fun, but might not be what you're looking for.
Since you're a gnome you really want to be taking the gnome favored class bonus (1 additional round of bardic performance). For feats you need to decide how you'd like to proceed. I recommend you spend your first few feats to get decent at archery, and then start focusing on spellcasting. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot. Later on pick up Arcane strike and you'll be "good enough" at archery for the rest of your career.
The others have offered some really decent advice as well.
Malachi Silverclaw
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If Fugue is the one whose focus component is a tiny platinum violin, choose that! I've used that in 3.5 and it ruled!
Also, Prestidigitation is an awesome cantrip. I'd gain that and lose spark.
Charm Monster lasts for 1day/level!
I don't think Good Hope stacks with Inspire Courage so don't take that spell if it gives the same bonus type.
Hideous Laughter, if used correctly, can be as good as a death spell. It is also subtle enough to get by some guards if you have a good bluff skill (and why wouldn't you?). Just approach the guards like you've just been told the funniest joke. When they ask to hear it, say you can't say it out loud as it's too rude. Reluctantly allow yourself to be persuaded to 'whisper it' in the sergeant's ear (or whoever's in charge) and, as you whisper, your hands are 'doing the actions' (actually the somatic commoners)!
Soon he'll be ROFL and you can wander away (through the gate) as the others want to know the joke. Still laughing, you gesture toward the prone and laughing sergeant and say 'He'll tell you!'.
Of course you need Eschew Materials to avoid having to throw tiny, tiny tarts...!
| modicasolis |
Sean, I really, really don't like any of the archetypes (except Thundercaller) because they all remove aspects of Bard I really enjoy. Versatile Performance is out for so many of them and I lovelovelove my Skills and use them a lot.
I may take Thundercaller. I haven't decided. I use my Knowledge skills a LOT, and I'd lose Dirge of Doom (which can be replaced with Blistering Invective and Intimidate checks, but DoD is a lot simpler and much more reliable).
Malachi, Good Hope most certainly does stack with Inspire Courage! :D "Inspire Courage gives a morale bonus on saving throws and a competence bonus on attack and damage rolls. Good Hope gives a morale bonus on attack and damage rolls, skill and ability checks, and saving throws."
I had steered away from Hideous Laughter due to the Will save required and it being a 1st Level spell and, thus, low on the DC side of things. I mean, there's always a chance, but it seems like a low chance (especially the way my DM rolls, sheesh).
| proftobe |
I have to agree with those above that state between point blank shot, rapid shot, precise shot, and arcane strike you should be decent at archery. I've seen something similar happen when we had an archery bard and an archery ranger. The ranger was doing more damage and hitting more often. The guy playing the bard was a new player and got pretty upset until I pointed out that his buffs were the reason everyone else was hitting and doing damage. Between haste and the base bard buffs all you need for combat is a trick or 2 and the best trick for someone who isn't in melee is archery. You wont get the big numbers, but you aren't there for big numbers you're there for your buffs and your skills. Active melee isn't the bard's best bet(although some archetypes change this dawnflower dervish and arcane duelist spring immediately to mind)
I suggest you pick up magician for expanded spells, but stick to archery. If you want to do something different(Magician is the better choice) and you took the gnome alternate advance every time before you qualified for the prestige class go into arcane archer. you still use performance to buff and the class abilities will up your DPR.
| Breiti |
Race: Gnome
Class: Bard
Level: 11th
STR: 13 (+1 @ 8th)
DEX: 15 (+1 @ 4th, 12th Level)
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 10
CHA: 16
Feats:
01st Arcane Strike
03rd Point Blank Shot
05th Precise Shot
07th Rapid Shot
09th Lingering Performance
11th Discordant Voice
I hope you know that you count as you own ally regarding bardic performance and most spells. So with this feat chain you get some nice damage out put. No mach for a full figther but still solid.
Damage with +1 Shortbow:
1d4 + 3 (Base) + 3 (Inspire Courage) + 3 (Arcane Strike) + 1d6 (Discordant Voice) = 15
With rapid shot 3 attacks that is about 45 damage on a full attack. This can easly be 60+ with a better bow and good hope up. With a headband of +2 char you get the 4th level bonus spell so nothing to worry about the casting side
Breiti
| Atarlost |
Lingering Performance is not vital. I'd take manyshot before it. You should have enough performance rounds, and relying on lingering performance to extend your performance can leave you with no performance running when you need to cast a finale and eats your move actions, preventing you from full attacking.
Other than that Breiti's bard looks pretty good. Don't forget to get a composite shortbow if you have str>=12.
If you can get the Arcane Duelist archetype you can get Arcane Strike for free which lets you fit Deadly Aim in as well. You keep what I think are the two best performances, though you lose the skill benefits.
Malachi Silverclaw
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Now that I'm awake I checked my 3.5 books; Inspire Courage was a morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls, and therefore did not stack with Good Hope.
I'm glad they changed Inspire Courage bonuses to competence bonuses; now they do stack.
Fugue is the spell I remember. One of it's many advantages is that it let's you be useful in combat every round without running out of spells. Just by concentrating on the one spell you already cast (Fugue! Stay with me, here!) you can keep the BBEG from doing anything! Just make sure you can hit DC 30 reliably and your usefulness in combat just got magnified. It's also area effect and you can choose different effects to suit each minion.
I actually beat a lich with this spell (and his minions)! He was the BBEG in the final battle. I used Fugue to keep him constantly stunned.
'Wait!' I hear you cry, 'Undead are immune to enchantment/charm, so, hah!'
Fugue is an Evocation [Sonic] spell!
: )
| Odraude |
I actually prefer melee bards. I have one currently and I play him like a skirmisher, helping out the frontlines guys with damage. Since I am human, I took Dodge and Arcane Strike at level 1 for extra damage and a little AC to boost. I took Power Attack at level 3 and I forget what I took at level 5. At level six, with Arcane Strike (+2), Power Attack (+6 for two handing), Inspire Courage (+2), and my strength two handing it, I get a pretty hefty bonus to damage. This isn't even including Heroism and Alter Self.
| ashern |
A sweet trick to do in PF now is Snapdragon Fireworks + Dazing Spell + Heighten Spell (reducing the bump with a trait is optimal). For example, at level 11, for 11 rounds you can lob a firework with a maxed out save DC. If they fail they're dazed for a number of rounds equal to the spell level (thanks to heighten spell). After your first round, you can use your standard for a new spell, your move for a firework, and your swift to maintain performance. It's not quite as buff as it is for wizards, but it gives you essentially an extra ability to debuff/blast for a long time for a single spell.
-thanks to the Core+ Wizard guide for this trick! (seriously, that guide is out of this world)
| StreamOfTheSky |
My favorite Bard archetypes are Dawnflower Dervish, Archaeologist, Dirge Bard, and Chelish Diva.
First is a fighty-oriented dex build, so not for you. And it loses group buffing. 2nd loses group buffing, probably out.
So I would look at Dirge Bard and Chelish Diva.
CD is great because you get a no save frighten effect and the option to burn through perform rounds at 2x the rate to pump save DC a bit.
Dirge Bard is good for an undead heavy game. Lets you perform Michael Jackson's "Thriller" with the level 10 perform ability, and you get to add a whole bunch of necro spells to your bard spells known.
EDIT:
Some good necro spells to learn:
Command Undead (Sorc/Wiz 2)
Bestow Curse (Witch 3)
Magic Jar (Summoner 4)
Enervation (Sorc/Wiz 4)
| modicasolis |
Breiti, the problem with that is that I would need to make a Full Attack, which allows me to do nothing else besides attack (and maintain my song) and that's really not a way that I'd like to play. I want to be casting more than that. I want weapons to be a very last resort, and I'd want my feats to reflect that.
| StreamOfTheSky |
It sounds like based on your wants and how the game is, Dirge Bard is the best option. They also get the ability to use Mind-Affecting spells on undead. But undead have such high will saves, it's probably still hopeless. Command Undead spell alone helps a ton here. Especially if paired with a lesser metamagic rod of Bouncing Spell for when targeting intelligent undead. Only 3000 gp.
| modicasolis |
I have a buff/controller build that I am playing currently, my only question is does he have to be built full bard? 1 level dip could make things much better for you.
No, not necessarily! What ya got in mind!
EDIT: I've always been confused by metamagic feats, but I'm thinking that maybe they would be a partial solution to my woes. Like getting a Metamagic Rod of Heighten Spell and a Metamagic Rod of Persistent Spell. But I'm not entirely sure how rods work, how multiple metamagic effects work on spells, any of that business.
| Gauss |
modicasolis:
Metmagic feats raise the spell slot required to cast that spell. They do NOT raise the actual level of the spell. Add all spell slot costs together with the original spell level of the spell and that is the spell slot required.
Examples:
If you were to enlarge (+1 level) a fireball (level 3) you need to use a level 4 spell slot but the fireball is still considered a level 3 spell for the purposes of saving throw DCs, and anything that checks the spell level of the spell.
If you were to enlarge (+1 level) and empower (+2 level) a fireball (level 3) you need to use a level 6 spell slot (3+1+2 = 6) but the fireball is still considered a level 3 spell for the purpose of saving throw DCs and anything that checks the spell level of the spell.
Metmagic Rods:
* Metamagic rods require that you be holding the rod.
* Metamatic Rods can be used on spells of specific levels. A Lesser Rod can only be used on level 1-3 spells. A Normal Rod can be used on level 1-6 spells. A Greater Rod can be used on level 1-9spells. (All at 3/day).
* Metamagic Rods do not increase the spell slot required.
* Metamagic Rods CAN be combined with a spell that already has metamagic feats applied to it.
* Metamagic Rods CANNOT be combined with other metamagic rods (1 rod per spell).
Spontaneous spellcasters (Sorcerers etc) must increase the spell casting time (usually to a full round action) when using metamagic feats or metamagic rods. This does not apply to metamagic feats that reduce the casting time (such as Quicken Spell).
Heighten Spell is a special case. Unlike other Metmagic feats it actually raises the spell level (not just the spell slot) of the spell. Increase the save DC accordingly. It counts as a spell of the new spell slot for all purposes.
Heighten Example:
A Level 3 Fireball is heightened to level 5. It's DC goes up by two because level 5 is 2 higher than level 3 (10+5+ability score). It can now bypass Lesser Globe of Invulnerability.
On the other hand an Empowered Fireball also takes a level 5 spell slot. But, the DC is still 10+3+ability score. It cannot bypass Lesser Globe of Invulnerability.
Note: there are NO Metamagic Rods of Heighten Spell.
- Gauss
| Breiti |
Breiti, the problem with that is that I would need to make a Full Attack, which allows me to do nothing else besides attack (and maintain my song) and that's really not a way that I'd like to play. I want to be casting more than that. I want weapons to be a very last resort, and I'd want my feats to reflect that.
I think i got your original post wrong. I thought you would like to keep the archer theme. Now i got what you want but keeping archery as last resort at above 10th level only works with some commitment in the form of feat and/or gold. And feats that reflect you buff/caster theme are much harder to find.
I have a few ideas maybe you like one of them:
1. Flagbearer(Feat) + Banner of the Ancient Kings(Item)
(You could mount the banner on a spellstoring longspear as you last resort weapon)
2. Point Blank Shot(Feat) + Precise Shot(Feat) + +1 Shortbow designating lesser/designating greater
It's a designating lesser(+2)/greater(+4) is a weapon enchantment from ultimate equipment. It give some nice moral boni to your melee allies if the attack targets that you hit with your bow. With the first option you have to scrap you archer theme completely. With option two you archery at least buffs and only needs two feats to be worth while.
| Breiti |
@modicasolis:
Some info about the party would be nice, too. Things like inspire courage, designating and good hope become much better with more material characters in a party. If you have some buddy in the party that can craft things a lot items can be used that are otherwise not available. If you have a sneaky guy in your party buffs/debuffs that enable sneak attack can be worth taking...
| TGMaxMaxer |
Ok... this is the most ... widespread buff/debuff/control bard i've been able to make.
Dirge/Sound Striker Bard 10/Crossblooded Seeker Sorc 1(Fey/Serpentine)
It gets: Mind affecting compulsions to work on Undead, Monstrous Humanoid, Beasts, and Magical Beasts. Look thru your bard debuffs... 95% of them are mind affecting compulsions.
3 Necromancy spells as bard spells.(2,6,10,more at 14,18)
+4 saves vs necro, energy drain, death effects and fear.
Animate Dead, that is not evil and lasts for a performance.
The ability to do 10 ranged touch attacks for damage, or to sunder items magically at the cost of one round of performance.
+2 to all mind affecting compulsion DCs... see also 95% of bard debuffs
A bite attack for fun 3+Cha times/day
Trapfinding as a Rogue, disable device as a class skill, and +1 to perception/disable device for traps.
Mind affecting save DCs (with 20 Cha) of 17+spell level that work on everything for the most part. By 11 you should have Cha +4 or +6 item to make that even worse.
You lose: Versatile performance, Inspire Competence(skills), Lore master, Jack of all Trades, Suggestion performance.
Adv the Gnomish alt magic Pyromaniac, +1 CL for fire spells, and Fire Music feat (Ult Magic) so any bard spell that does damage can be fire(and qualifies for +1CL) as the type changes, also summoned creatures are fire type and do fire damage.
Spellsong (Ult Magic) to help with the concentration spells while you cast another.
| modicasolis |
Gauss,
Original feats were: Improved Initiative, Lingering Performance, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Harmonic Spell (I think). Part of what didn't work was needing to use a Full Action to do any kind of decent damage with my Shortbow. It seemed like it would be more useful to cast a spell–and it often was–which is the style I gravitate towards more anyway. I prefer playing spellcasters, and usually play Druids, but we had one in the party and I didn't want to overlap.
Breiti,
Party composition is: A Ranger (Ranged focus), Paladin, Fighter, Sorcerer (Shadow Template, uses a lot of Fly-by attack stuff), Monk of Many Styles, Druid, and Cleric. The Sorcerer can craft some things, like wands and a few magic items. But wands are not hard to find, especially with my Bard's connections and my heaps of money from our adventuring and my various performances around Faerun.
Should note: The Monk is usually not there. And the Druid and Cleric come a good amount of the time but are awfully busy. Maybe 2/3 of the time, they're there.
| TGMaxMaxer |
So, with no cleric being able to fascinate undead and such from dirge bard will substitute somewhat for the channeling against them, by locking them down.
All the physical attackers will want you to continue to buff/inspire.
You have access to enough gear to round out anything you're lacking spells wise with wands and such, so provided you can grab basic stat/armor items you should be set.
For a controller/buff/debuff character I stand by my build above.